The Iron Post in Urbana has many jazz performances. However, women have never played trumpet, sax, guitar, or trombone in any jazz group which has played there
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The assertion is ridiculous, and has not been backed up by statistics. One has only to look at the composition of jazz bands in the local middle and high schools to see the original poster is wrong about many of his/her assertions.
Incidentally, the Iron Post supports those young kids' jazz programs by allowing them to play there. One such band I saw featured three (out of four) female trumpet players and four (out of four) saxophone players. Throw in a drummer or two and a bass player and my recollection is that at least half of the band members were talented young women.
To Clearvision: Your first sentence referred to a single assertion. Your next sentence referred multiple "assertions." Please tell us which assertion or assertions you disagree with.
Concerning yoiur second paragraph, all posters have agreed that the Iron Post's owner and employees have not discrimnated against anyone.
The title of this thread clearly implies that the owners and/or employees at the Iron Post are engaging in sexism. Shame on you for naming them! If that is not your intention you should not have titled the thread with it and to deny that was not your intention is questionable. Why can't the answer simply be that women don't WANT to be doing this??? It hardly matters why they don't.
" Why can't the answer simply be that women don't WANT to be doing this???" Because that is not true.
"clearly implies" If employees or the owner fo the Iron Post had displayed sexist behavior, the headline would have read "Sexism by the Iron Post's owner/staff" Suppose that after an altercation at the Iron Post, a headline "Fight **at** Iron Post" appears. In your mind, does that mean the owner or employees participated?
"is questionable" What do you mean by questionable? Under what circumstances do you believe that a clarification of a misinterpreted statement is questionable?
The title of the thread is obviously inflammatory. Before you say "nuh uh, no it's not" like you've done with other comments, understand that these things have to be understood the same way sexism is understood: something is sexist or inflammatory, not because it was intended to be, but because it was perceived or interpreted to be by an offended party. The fact that so many replies demonstrate offense is evidence that the statement is inflammatory. Your feeble attempts to claim otherwise and explain away the issue don't matter and don't change a thing.
You paint with a broad brush. You extrapolate from small isolated examples to make extremely broad claims. That's a logical no-no and the reason everyone is bucking your post so hard. Work on it, and maybe we'll be willing to participate in the discussion a little further, because it hasn't gotten very far past the title so far.
On second thought, I'm not sure we would be willing to participate further. I'm not sure I've read a post on here of lesser local/regional/national import than this one.
To brothernumbpsey: Concerning your comment
(a) No broad claims have been made. Please state the broad claims you believe exist.
(b) You wrote: "something is sexist or inflammatory, not because it was intended to be, but because it was perceived or interpreted to be by an offended party." This is inaccurate, and, by combining unrelated concepts, (ironically) overly broad. Concerning the sexism part, are you suggesting that only the offended can perceive sexism? Concerning the inflammatory part, consider the following. Discussion of an issue involves statements and subsequent clarifications. Like other posters, your focus on your misinterpretation of the title, rather than the issue, reflects an inability to accept the exposure of this instance of sexism. Possible reasons people take offense at a statement are:
(i) It violates their conscious or subconscious self-image or set of values
(ii) Others will believe the statement's inaccuracy.
(c) You wrote: "... I'm not sure we would be willing to participate further." This seems oxymoronic and sophomoric, considering you chose to contribute to a thread which started almost a year ago. As a self-proclaimed expert on "logical no-no's," you need to learn to "speak for yourself"
Best to leave this one alone. You won't get anywhere.
I've read all 31 comments to date of this rambling discussion. The heart of the matter has been stated: prove the alleged sexism with statistics that prove that massive numbers of decent female jazz players have been turned away. Case closed.
For any serious(?) allegation that female-would-be jazz players are being "held back" at early ages, I can suggest just as seriously that maybe "jazz" band music just doesn't speak to young female musicians in general deeply enough to stay with it and cultivate it to a high degree.
In any event, though, it has been my musical experience over many decades now that the most talent I've heard from females in jazz centers around the piano or vocals. And I'm very thankful for that... (Blossom Dearie is now at the top of my list, by the way.)
Even if "...maybe "jazz" band music just doesn't speak to young female musicians in general deeply enough to stay with it and cultivate it to a high degree" were true, then we would still expect a small but substantial percent (say 20%) of women playing brass, woodwinds, guitar or drums in jazz ensembles. That the percentage is closer to zero, suggests some bias or discrimination in the jazz world--whether or not intentional and/or malevolent--which may well start at the middle school level.
1st I appreciate such a respectful reply. I consider myself a newcomer here though I have posted on Gazette forums before dating back a few years.
Perhaps the 'almost-zero percent of female brass, etc; players', if a sin at all, is one of omission or oversight, and not of commission. Somewhere in this long thread someone commented along the lines of that he couldn't imagine a music teacher somehow refusing to teach jazz to females. So, maybe part of the "why" is it is simply not being encouraged. I wouldn't even expect any 11 to 15 yr old, either gender, to be attracted to sounds by Brubeck (my lifelong favorite) or any of the great old bands (Ellington, etc;) or current ones. But I'm thankful the attraction does settle in later in some, to help keep it alive--somewhere, at least.
Perhaps there will be a natural increase of jazz female players over time. A few years ago I heard a middle-school jazz group here in D'ville under Mark Lindvahl, the best trumpeteer&jazz man in the area in my opinion, and the girls predominated the sax section.
Now, if you or anyone would want to opine about something along this line of "sexism" but it wouldn't be that term except perhaps indirectly--since a fair percentage of violinists are female-- , it'd be why jazz from a violin player just doesn't seem to have "it". What kind of "ism" would that be called?
NOT true, many women have played there!
pb: Please review this thread. All the posters agree that the percentage of female players of brass, guitar, woodwinds, and drums in the local jazz scene is embarrassing low. I have suggested that a sexist local jazz culture has lead to this. The only other plausible explanation offered has been that the UI jazz program has few female students studying these instruments for jazz, which suggests that the discrimination starts in junior high school.
What a trip. To think the Tea Partiers are brought into this thread, based on a false premise, just as the title. Me thinkest thou has too much time and not enough common sense when you toot your horn. Get a life.
Mr. Baylor noted: "This is a perfect example of the internet abuse." No, this is a perfect example of persons (such as Mr. Baylor, Mr. Helagson, Charles Chaplin, and Moruitelda) unthinkingly misinterpreting a catchy, yet accurate headline. Discrimination observable at the Iron Post, does not mean that the Iron Post perpetrated or encouraged such. The Tea Party movement has such a large following and radical Muslim (and other) terrorists can be recruited because people get bamboozled by catchy slogans. "Terrorist bombings in Pakistan and Iraq and the U.S." does not suggest that those countries' leaders participated in such.
The posts in this thread clearly indicate that neither I, nor anyone else, suggests that the Iron Post's owner discriminates against anyone on the basis of gender. HOWEVER, the number of women who play horns, woodwinds, guitars and drums in the local jazz scene is embarrassingly, and in fact discriminatingly, small.
Mr Helgason's remark that the U of I jazz program has few women applicants for these instruments unintentionally, but possibly correctly, suggests that the discrimination under discussion may well start in middle school, where students often seriously begin playing musical instruments.
Last evening (Sunday) Jordan Kaye again organized the monthly performance at the Iron Post of the music of Django Reinhardt, a prominent jazz guitarist in the 1930's and 1940's. I do not recall any female musicians playing in these monthly performances. On the other hand, Reinhardt may never have played with female players of horns, woodwinds, guitars or drums--so the discrimination against women musicians in the jazz world may well have a long, pernicious tradition.
At first I thought this post and it's defense was meant to be a joke.. Unfortunately for society in general it is not.
Here's a good one for you, Selguy writes, "The Tea Party movement has such a large following and radical Muslim (and other) terrorists can be recruited because people get bamboozled by catchy slogans." Hmmm, thinking back what catchy slogans can I remember from recent history that really helped someone? WAIT! I got it: "Change We Can Believe In," "Hope & Change," and "Yes We Can." I think Selguy is trying to infer that people who voted for Obama are the same as Tea Partiers and terrorists because of the catchy slogan thing...
"I think Selguy is trying to infer that people who voted for Obama are the same as Tea Partiers and terrorists because of the catchy slogan thing..."
Please explain how you reached this inaccurate conclusion. The previous president's administration irreparably damaged our nation's global status and economy by invading Iraq under false pretenses, running huge budget deficits to fund the war, and then mismanaging the Iraq's recovery. No catchy slogans were needed to elect Obama
I know I am! I'm a terrorist tea partier who voted for Obama! And I personally created the hostile environment for musically-included middle school girls to prevent them from ever playing significant roles on the local jazz scene.
BOOM - problem solved. If you would kindly turn yourself into Mr. Selguy so you can schedule your re-education camp time... Soon, we will be the female jazz/blue center of East Central Illinois. Then Illinois... and then, The World! bwuhahahahaha..
Sorry…I work FOR and WITH a NUMBER music educators, and I COULD NEVER SEE ANYONE OF THEM DISCOURAGING ANY KIND OF MUSICIAL GROWTH ON THE BASIS OF GENDER WHATSOEVER!!!!
And, I'd bet the farm on that statement.
They are true gem's in this world of garbage art. My heroes.
You're grasping at straws now. Just go away.
And quit being inflammatory. Do something good today.
BTW- I’m sorry Paul Wirth hurt your feelings. He can be salty. AB
Once it was stated that the initial post had no intention of associating Mr. Wirth with sexism, your (and other posters') incessant insistence to the contrary really does Mr. Wirth a disservice, because readers of this discourse repeatedly reading "Iron Post" and sexism in the same sentence may unintentionally take away a subliminal association between the two.
You are fortunate to work with educators whom you believe would not discourage musical growth based on gender. But before you "bet the farm," have you checked with your music educator friends what the percentage of the jazz musicians in their own programs (be it junior high, senior high, or private instruction) are girls?
Ten or so years ago, representatives of the black community approached the Champaign and Urbana schools with concerns of discrimination against black students. Urbana's schools made adjustments based upon the these discussions. Champaign's schools resisted, resulting in a court case, and an expensive multi-year court decree/supervision. Neither school system intentionally discriminated against minority students. The small number of women playing drums, guitar, woodwind and brass in the local jazz scene clearly suggests that, at the minimum, implicit discrimination has occurred.
This is a perfect example of the internet abuse.
Anonymous people posting inflammatory remarks that can ruin a person’s life and business.
I cannot see Paul Wirth keeping ANYONE from playing his club, on the basis of gender.
Maybe there is more to this story. A "Hidden Agenda" perhaps?
Mr. Helgason: since you played the Iron Post on Friday, you certainly saw the sign noting that almost 5000 bands have played the Iron Post in its 10 year history, and asking patrons to name their favorites. Do any of your favorites include jazz bands which featured a female horn, woodwind or drum players?
Moruitelda On Sep 16 at 909am raised several points and questions
1) "...cultural factors will still vary between the groups, resulting in statistical anomalies." These cultural factors are often that persons of certain sex or ethnicity have traditionally not performed some role or task, despite having no physical or intellectual defciency to prevent them from doing so.
2) "...you're making a lot of noise about nothing." The length of responses to the initial post indicate that others are making far more noise about what they (incorrectly) think is nothing
3) "Why does the thread title say "Sexism at the Iron Post"?" Because the events cited occrured at th Iron Post.
4) "A reasonable person looking at this post will think that you're alleging sexist action by the Iron Post's proprietors. That's why you could be civilly liable." Please tell us the source of your alleged knowledge of law which led you to this incorrect conclusion.
Mr Helagason, on Sep 16, 8:09am opined "There are less women represented in the jazz program because there are fewer females applying to the jazz program." Well, that suggests that the discrimination against females starts at a much earlier level of education.
What utter baloney. It would seem that Selguy sees sexism everywhere. (There are, by the way, some very fine pollice officers, firefighters, soldiers etc. who are female. Body mass is not much of an issue, frankly.) If there would good women jazz players who wanted to play jazz, they would be playing it. Bring us one who says she has been discriminated against.
Oh, by the way, the assertion that "women have never played trumpet, sax, guitar, or trombone in any jazz group which has played there" is demonstrably false.
Even if an occasional woman has slipped in, the percent of women is so low that some form of institutional or cultural sexism exists. Any such woman certainly had to be much better than her male peers
Your apology for breathlessly misrepresenting the state of affairs is accepted.
You may be right, but it is not sexism. They (the women) have chosen to not play jazz. I'd say your post is a pretty lame attempt at whatever you are promoting. How many beauty shops do not have a male hair dresser (some do)? What about mechanics, Iron workers, even farmers. Most, if not all, are males. Scheesch!
Women on average are smaller than men and have relatively less muscle mass. Thus relatively fewer women work in jobs requiring heavy lifting.
Why would women not choose to play jazz? Do you believe they lack the jazz gene, or lack the right type of rhythm?
Use your web browser and search for "blind auditions". You will find many links to articles that describe how symphony orchestras the past several years have been auditioning candidate musicians behind screens so the judges could not see the race or gender of the candidate. As a result, many more women have been hired as musicians in symphony orchestras.
Interesting comment. It's also a comment that is incorrect. I've had many female friends play at the Iron Post over the years. As someone who frequents downtown Urbana's bar scene, I can unequivocally say that you are wrong.
There may have been an occasional exception, but the vast majority of such players are male. You can review the jazz groups that have played at the iron Post the last two months, list all the brass, guitar, and woodwind players, and find maybe one woman. At a jazz jam at Zorba's Thursday night Sep 2, none of the 15 or so woodwind, brass, guitar or drummers for the evening were women
And you know for a fact its because of a concerted effort to exclude women. Show us some proof of such actions. By the way I didn't see any men invited to the women is business meeting. I also read where more women are in college than men. Are there any programs the universities have to get more men to attend. By your definition looks like the colleges are playing a sexism game.
Discrimination against a group most often does not come from a concerted effort--but rather from from prior social connections and networks and associated traditions. So the example about more women and men now in college does not apply.
The point is this - if you're going to make an allegation of sexist discrimination, you need to have proof of someone qualified who was turned away because of said discrimination.
If the business owners were to sue you for libel, they would make a very strong case. Find some people who were told they could not play because of their gender and you'll come off as something more than an agitator with a little too much time on his or her hands.
That sexism or racism exists in a situation is not an automatic call for legal action.
Your point is invalid. Findings of sexual or racial discrimination are often established when an inordinately low percent of some ethnic group or gender holds some job or other role. For years, blacks were concerned that the number of black NCAA and NFL coaches was much too low compared to the percent of players who were black. The NFL and NCAA established policies to encourage teams to consider black candidates, and the situation, especially in the NFL, has changed.
In the case of the local jazz scene, the number of female wind and guitar players is very close to zero.
That discrimination was noticeable at a place of business does not mean that the business had perpetrated the discrimination. Please explain your fantasy that "If the business owners were to sue you for libel, they would make a very strong case."
You said it yourself: "in the case of the local jazz scene, the number of female wind and guitar players is very close to zero". (Note that you conveniently omit piano players and vocalists.) If there were more female musicians in the jazz program at the U/I, there'd likely be more female jazz musicians playing at the Post. If there were more male vocalists and piano players, perhaps there'd be more males performing at V. Picasso. It's simple math.
It's irresponsible to tar one business with a headline like the one you used.
Your remark suggests discrimination, intentional or otherwise, exists in the UI jazz program. As a devout football fan, you know that for many years the NFL had very few black head coaches. Why do the brass, woodwind and guitar sections of the UI jazz program have almost no women?
The Iron Post has not been accused of perpetrating or encouraging discriminatory behavior.
What you fail to recognize is this: even in situations where all races, sexes/gender identities, belief systems, and so forth are treated equally, cultural factors will still vary between the groups, resulting in statistical anomalies. You cannot look at a sample and unequivocally state that there is "sexism" (or "racism") simply because the group's demographics do not match those of society at large. It's alarmist, irresponsible and misleading.
You jump from there to arguing that there is discrimination in the U of I jazz program. Do you have admissions records based upon gender? Do you have information regarding rejected candidates' abilities and genders? If not, you're making a lot of noise about nothing.
You say the Iron Post has not been accused of it... two questions then. Why does the thread title say "Sexism at the Iron Post"? And why did you even make the post, if not to whistleblow? A reasonable person looking at this post will think that you're alleging sexist action by the Iron Post's proprietors. That's why you could be civilly liable. You have no statistical basis for making a claim of sexist discrimination, and rather than saying "Why are there no women..." and it could certainly be damaging to them. The truth is a defense, but you have no way of making a prima facie case for actual sexism.
There are less women represented in the jazz program because there are fewer females applying to the jazz program.