Sexism at the Iron Post in Urbana
The Iron Post in Urbana has many jazz performances. However, women have never played trumpet, sax, guitar, or trombone in any jazz group which has played there
The assertion is ridiculous,
The assertion is ridiculous, and has not been backed up by statistics. One has only to look at the composition of jazz bands in the local middle and high schools to see the original poster is wrong about many of his/her assertions.
Incidentally, the Iron Post supports those young kids' jazz programs by allowing them to play there. One such band I saw featured three (out of four) female trumpet players and four (out of four) saxophone players. Throw in a drummer or two and a bass player and my recollection is that at least half of the band members were talented young women.
The title of this thread
The title of this thread clearly implies that the owners and/or employees at the Iron Post are engaging in sexism. Shame on you for naming them! If that is not your intention you should not have titled the thread with it and to deny that was not your intention is questionable. Why can't the answer simply be that women don't WANT to be doing this??? It hardly matters why they don't.
The title of the thread is
The title of the thread is obviously inflammatory. Before you say "nuh uh, no it's not" like you've done with other comments, understand that these things have to be understood the same way sexism is understood: something is sexist or inflammatory, not because it was intended to be, but because it was perceived or interpreted to be by an offended party. The fact that so many replies demonstrate offense is evidence that the statement is inflammatory. Your feeble attempts to claim otherwise and explain away the issue don't matter and don't change a thing.
You paint with a broad brush. You extrapolate from small isolated examples to make extremely broad claims. That's a logical no-no and the reason everyone is bucking your post so hard. Work on it, and maybe we'll be willing to participate in the discussion a little further, because it hasn't gotten very far past the title so far.
On second thought, I'm not sure we would be willing to participate further. I'm not sure I've read a post on here of lesser local/regional/national import than this one.
Best to leave this one alone.
Best to leave this one alone. You won't get anywhere.
Best to leave this one alone.
Best to leave this one alone. You won't get anywhere.
I've read all 31 comments to
I've read all 31 comments to date of this rambling discussion. The heart of the matter has been stated: prove the alleged sexism with statistics that prove that massive numbers of decent female jazz players have been turned away. Case closed.
For any serious(?) allegation that female-would-be jazz players are being "held back" at early ages, I can suggest just as seriously that maybe "jazz" band music just doesn't speak to young female musicians in general deeply enough to stay with it and cultivate it to a high degree.
In any event, though, it has been my musical experience over many decades now that the most talent I've heard from females in jazz centers around the piano or vocals. And I'm very thankful for that... (Blossom Dearie is now at the top of my list, by the way.)
Regards,
1st I appreciate such a
1st I appreciate such a respectful reply. I consider myself a newcomer here though I have posted on Gazette forums before dating back a few years.
Perhaps the 'almost-zero percent of female brass, etc; players', if a sin at all, is one of omission or oversight, and not of commission. Somewhere in this long thread someone commented along the lines of that he couldn't imagine a music teacher somehow refusing to teach jazz to females. So, maybe part of the "why" is it is simply not being encouraged. I wouldn't even expect any 11 to 15 yr old, either gender, to be attracted to sounds by Brubeck (my lifelong favorite) or any of the great old bands (Ellington, etc;) or current ones. But I'm thankful the attraction does settle in later in some, to help keep it alive--somewhere, at least.
Perhaps there will be a natural increase of jazz female players over time. A few years ago I heard a middle-school jazz group here in D'ville under Mark Lindvahl, the best trumpeteer&jazz man in the area in my opinion, and the girls predominated the sax section.
Now, if you or anyone would want to opine about something along this line of "sexism" but it wouldn't be that term except perhaps indirectly--since a fair percentage of violinists are female-- , it'd be why jazz from a violin player just doesn't seem to have "it". What kind of "ism" would that be called?
NOT true, many women have
NOT true, many women have played there!
What a trip. To think the
What a trip. To think the Tea Partiers are brought into this thread, based on a false premise, just as the title. Me thinkest thou has too much time and not enough common sense when you toot your horn. Get a life.
At first I thought this post
At first I thought this post and it's defense was meant to be a joke.. Unfortunately for society in general it is not.
Here's a good one for you, Selguy writes, "The Tea Party movement has such a large following and radical Muslim (and other) terrorists can be recruited because people get bamboozled by catchy slogans." Hmmm, thinking back what catchy slogans can I remember from recent history that really helped someone? WAIT! I got it: "Change We Can Believe In," "Hope & Change," and "Yes We Can." I think Selguy is trying to infer that people who voted for Obama are the same as Tea Partiers and terrorists because of the catchy slogan thing...
I know I am! I'm a terrorist
I know I am! I'm a terrorist tea partier who voted for Obama! And I personally created the hostile environment for musically-included middle school girls to prevent them from ever playing significant roles on the local jazz scene.
BOOM - problem solved. If
BOOM - problem solved. If you would kindly turn yourself into Mr. Selguy so you can schedule your re-education camp time... Soon, we will be the female jazz/blue center of East Central Illinois. Then Illinois... and then, The World! bwuhahahahaha..
Sorry…I work FOR and WITH a
Sorry…I work FOR and WITH a NUMBER music educators, and I COULD NEVER SEE ANYONE OF THEM DISCOURAGING ANY KIND OF MUSICIAL GROWTH ON THE BASIS OF GENDER WHATSOEVER!!!!
And, I'd bet the farm on that statement.
They are true gem's in this world of garbage art. My heroes.
You're grasping at straws now. Just go away.
And quit being inflammatory. Do something good today.
BTW- I’m sorry Paul Wirth hurt your feelings. He can be salty. AB
This is a perfect example of
This is a perfect example of the internet abuse.
Anonymous people posting inflammatory remarks that can ruin a person’s life and business.
I cannot see Paul Wirth keeping ANYONE from playing his club, on the basis of gender.
Maybe there is more to this story. A "Hidden Agenda" perhaps?
What utter baloney. It would
What utter baloney. It would seem that Selguy sees sexism everywhere. (There are, by the way, some very fine pollice officers, firefighters, soldiers etc. who are female. Body mass is not much of an issue, frankly.) If there would good women jazz players who wanted to play jazz, they would be playing it. Bring us one who says she has been discriminated against.
What utter baloney. It would
What utter baloney. It would seem that Selguy sees sexism everywhere. (There are, by the way, some very fine pollice officers, firefighters, soldiers etc. who are female. Body mass is not much of an issue, frankly.) If there would good women jazz players who wanted to play jazz, they would be playing it. Bring us one who says she has been discriminated against.
Oh, by the way, the assertion
Oh, by the way, the assertion that "women have never played trumpet, sax, guitar, or trombone in any jazz group which has played there" is demonstrably false.
Your apology for breathlessly
Your apology for breathlessly misrepresenting the state of affairs is accepted.
You may be right, but it is
You may be right, but it is not sexism. They (the women) have chosen to not play jazz. I'd say your post is a pretty lame attempt at whatever you are promoting. How many beauty shops do not have a male hair dresser (some do)? What about mechanics, Iron workers, even farmers. Most, if not all, are males. Scheesch!
Interesting comment. It's
Interesting comment. It's also a comment that is incorrect. I've had many female friends play at the Iron Post over the years. As someone who frequents downtown Urbana's bar scene, I can unequivocally say that you are wrong.
And you know for a fact its
And you know for a fact its because of a concerted effort to exclude women. Show us some proof of such actions. By the way I didn't see any men invited to the women is business meeting. I also read where more women are in college than men. Are there any programs the universities have to get more men to attend. By your definition looks like the colleges are playing a sexism game.
The point is this - if you're
The point is this - if you're going to make an allegation of sexist discrimination, you need to have proof of someone qualified who was turned away because of said discrimination.
If the business owners were to sue you for libel, they would make a very strong case. Find some people who were told they could not play because of their gender and you'll come off as something more than an agitator with a little too much time on his or her hands.
You said it yourself: "in the
You said it yourself: "in the case of the local jazz scene, the number of female wind and guitar players is very close to zero". (Note that you conveniently omit piano players and vocalists.) If there were more female musicians in the jazz program at the U/I, there'd likely be more female jazz musicians playing at the Post. If there were more male vocalists and piano players, perhaps there'd be more males performing at V. Picasso. It's simple math.
It's irresponsible to tar one business with a headline like the one you used.
What you fail to recognize is
What you fail to recognize is this: even in situations where all races, sexes/gender identities, belief systems, and so forth are treated equally, cultural factors will still vary between the groups, resulting in statistical anomalies. You cannot look at a sample and unequivocally state that there is "sexism" (or "racism") simply because the group's demographics do not match those of society at large. It's alarmist, irresponsible and misleading.
You jump from there to arguing that there is discrimination in the U of I jazz program. Do you have admissions records based upon gender? Do you have information regarding rejected candidates' abilities and genders? If not, you're making a lot of noise about nothing.
You say the Iron Post has not been accused of it... two questions then. Why does the thread title say "Sexism at the Iron Post"? And why did you even make the post, if not to whistleblow? A reasonable person looking at this post will think that you're alleging sexist action by the Iron Post's proprietors. That's why you could be civilly liable. You have no statistical basis for making a claim of sexist discrimination, and rather than saying "Why are there no women..." and it could certainly be damaging to them. The truth is a defense, but you have no way of making a prima facie case for actual sexism.
There are less women
There are less women represented in the jazz program because there are fewer females applying to the jazz program.
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