Unmentionables
Does anyone else think that there are certain topics of public discourse considered off the table from a political or socially acceptable standpoint that shouldn't be so? For example, seceding from the Union. Shouldn't that be an option for states completely fed up with the course of the country? Would we really want a state part of the USA with, say, 2/3 of it's citizens wanting out? Is leaving civil war as the only option for that state to express its desire really a good idea?
Just a thought that maybe certain topics should be more well thought through. As they say, prior planning prevents poor performance.
A good point and one of the
A good point and one of the few remaining leverages that states still have. However, I believe it requires 2/3 states majority to pass, something that can be extremely difficult even for popular movements, much less trying to do a divorce.
But it’s the symbiotic relationship that would be so difficult to break. How would you handle interstate funding, welfare, social security, FEMA, homeland security, infrastructure funding and the list goes on and on.
No state is an island and for us to cut ourselves off from the Fed’s is like cutting off all our arms and legs, since so much of our funding flows to and from the cesspool.
Besides the powers that be, are not done with us yet, they still have many more “protective” laws to pass in keeping us safe (like seat belt laws), because we have many more years of paying only the interest on our debt to the bankers.
Now if you wanted to debate the real unmentionable and third rail of American culture, it would be AIPAC and its overly covert socio-political influences on our national and international policies.
The coalition of states that
The coalition of states that became The United States was founded on the premise that as sovereign states we would band together as an association, in the betterment of coordinating commerce and security.
This association over time, led to an ever increasing power in federal control over the states, which culminated in the Confederation of states seceding from the Union of states, and we know what the response of the Federal government was.
The ability of any state to secede from the Federal death grip is now impossible as Federal control over every aspect of our lives is virtually complete. From all of our travels where we are stopped at road blocks call “road side checks” to say nothing of molesting air travel to our cell phones that track our every movement, the reach of the Federal grip is complete.
To say nothing of the “Beasts” number that all of us must now use in every transaction we make, a nine digit mark upon all our heads and hand.
When Geroge the W took control of all the states guard by executive order to the outcry of 50 state governors, the die has finished being poured and we are no longer sovereign states as our founders envisions, capable of any resistance, but slaves to the Federalist powers.
It’s a quaint idea, that of secession. But it is a fools folly to even entertain its potential, in that it can never happen until Federalist powers are diminished to the point where it can be wrestled to the ground. An occurrence that will not happen as long as individuals and states, continue to use the federal systems in their daily lives.
It is an symbiotic relationship that to eliminate one is the destroy the other. The American people can’t even understand the American Imperialism that is destroy their civilization, how could we ever hope they would get off their potato couch and rise up against a imperial power they believe nurtures them.
Besides, once the population begins to get a little riled up, it’s so easy to get them back in line, especially with today’s controlled media.
“The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." Hermann Goering, the Nazi Reichsmarshall, April 18, 1946
I haven't been on the forum
I haven't been on the forum for a while, but I couldn't resist this topic. Some of the comments suggest it would be detrimental for a state -- say Illinois -- to withdraw from the Union, peaceably of course. Why not?
Illinois exports more dollars to Washington that it receives from Washington. What do we reallly get in return that we couldn't provide ourselves.
I must say I've never thought about this before -- and I'd sooner not let Mike Madigan run my whole country. But I think it's a darned interesting question. There's been a lot of fun discussion on the forums lately. I need to catch up.
more
more examples?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Star_Republic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas_(group)
and plenty of others, just google it
Guess you or someone would
Guess you or someone would have to come up with more examples for me to understand what you're asking. As for states leaving the union, not trying to be facetious, but they tried that already.
Regards,
All I'm saying is if 2/3 (or
All I'm saying is if 2/3 (or whatever number we pick) of a state's residents were so unhappy with the country that they were willing to secede and assume all the burdens that decision carries with it, wouldn't that be a more pleasant option than war? Would we really want that state in our union?
Only if the 2/3 would risk war.
What benefit are we realizing that is so great as to die for it? None
What are we protecting? What are we not protecting?
Wouldn't it make sense to have an option for states that voluntarily entered the union to voluntarily leave? No
Shouldn't such an option be reasoned and prepared now while cooler heads prevail than when a state is considering seceding in the heat of the moment with no option but war on the table and time is of the essence? No
And why is it I've never before seen this seriously discussed nationally despite the topic seemingly coming up every few years on a smaller scale (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States for some of these)? Probably for the same reason no one has tried to teach a porcupine to drive a car. Maybe you can speculate otherwise
The Romans and Dutch examples are not relevant, because they appointed governors to rule foreign lands. The U.S. seceding also is a bad example because of the of the large distance between North America and England. Today's capacity for high speed communication makes everyone closer, thus discouraging a state's leaving the U.S.
What benefit are we realizing
What benefit are we realizing that is so great as to die for it?
Freedom from tyranny...
'Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.' - Benito Mussolini
You misinterpreted my post,
You misinterpreted my post, I'm agreeing with the position that you just posted.
Forcing a state to remain in the union is the 'tyranny' that I referred to, or if the state feels like the federal government has become fascist and tyrannical, then it's citizens should have the ability to vote to secede. But, as Penn and Oliver pointed out, this has already been tried and Honest Abe not only brought war to those states but burnt their capitals to the ground as retribution.
Originally, the Founding Fathers had intended for the Senate to be representatives of the states only, to prevent a centralized federal government from encroaching on the rights of individual states. Senators were not elected by the people but appointed by their respective state legislatures.
Our Founding Fathers were no dummies. they were the 'brainiacs!'
In my simplistic opinion, the
In my simplistic opinion, the states need something much larger than themselves in order to be adequately protected from all enemy countries that would destroy our way of life with their force. The combined forces of all the states working together is, and has been, the best protection for all.
Secession is a little like one lung saying to the body, "Hey gang, I'm fed up with y'all. Bye-bye." The lung will die on its own, and the rest of the body will be weakened without it.
Regards,
Here's a link to a group in
Here's a link to a group in Vermont that wants to return Vermont to an independent republic: http://vermontrepublic.org/
Discourse about seceding
Discourse about seceding comes up all the time. No one fears the topic, but a critical mass to who take the talk seriously does not exist. No state has recently ex[pressed any serious desire to leave the United States.
What should or should not be acceptable for public discourse is in the mind of the speaker.
Such prudence planning for
Such prudence planning for such an impossible event is a waste of time.
What are you saying is
What are you saying is guaranteed to happen? None of the examples you cite represent entities from which there was an attempt to secede by one or more "states" analogous to our nation's states
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