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Tue, 01/11/2011 - 5:13pm | Penteller

The silence is deafening.

After having three forum sites collapse beneath me, I was greatly encouraged to hear that the NG had a community forum site available. Although it is painfully obvious of the NG’s right wing leaning tendencies through the years, it seemed a logical conclusion that a site such as this held considerable potential. What, being a big 10,12, 14 or whatever school city.

Several years back, the Vermilion County site called “All Around Danville” was a dynamic, thriving and rapidly growing forum, in a blue collar town with low test scores and semi sans-progressive tendencies. An incredible site, until its sale to a local media group who believed they were in the newspaper business and let it die

So the thought of all those educated brainiacs and ultra-right wing Urbana Champaign persons coming together in their own local forum community, was a thrilling thought indeed. But what could be and what is, becomes the depression of what has become.

After several months of posting on different topics in trying to spark debate, the best that was achieved was a couple of “says you” posts back to me. No real depth, no real debate, no real interaction, no real community.

So where is everyone?

My guess is that like much of America today, they are in their little comfort groups where like minded drivel is the norm and descent is limited to minimal variations on the theme. A cocooned world of mental inbreeding that allows for warm associations based on minimal thought, because they are certainly not here.

Our ability as a nation to come together on common grounds and debate with each other in logical passionate ways seems to be repressed. Our ability to robustly debate each other in a spirit of respect and understand, seems to be of a bygone era. And our ability to come to an understanding of each others positions, has certainly been buried by our partisan ideologies.

The recent shooting of a US Congresswoman is the natural outcome of our intransient and vitriol dialog that has become this nation’s norm.

A nation where the screaming ultra-right wing pundits slobber the word “liberal” as though it was a meaning of demonic powers, while putting gun sight logos on those of political opposition.

We have become a nation of isolation. Isolating ourselves through imperial actions overseas and radical politics at home, a nation of ignorant people looking to blame anyone but ourselves for the mess we’re in.

Here in this place is our last great hope in understanding each other. Here within these limitless knowledge links are the paths we need to enlightenment. Here within this time is our success possible.

We can either choose to use it in learning about our world and each other, or let its inherent isolative tendencies, dictate the dangerous strangers we become.

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Penteller wrote on January 18, 2011 at 5:01 pm

The belief that truths are

The belief that truths are relative is a humanistic view based on relativism and accounts for many of the moral issues we face today. To believe that ones view is somehow a truth while others are non-truths is to disavow the very existence of truth.

This gray quagmire of philosophy is one reason why so many people follow with blind acceptance those who speak non-truths, because a lie is always much easier to believe and requires no personal effort to evaluate.

You have placed your finger upon the very core of the problem associated with the minions who believe everything they are told, because they believe that truth is relative and they love the relation they have with the idols they listen to, where everything said becomes a truth.

If something is true it will stand upon itself and cannot be shaken, it is an un-assailable point that cannot be weathered or diminished. Non-truths are simply that, sans truths which are subject to change, can be poked holes in and found to be hollow from within.

The best that anyone can do against a truth is to assail the one who brings the truth and claim some sort of belief in relative truth. But in the end, if a truth is real, its core a purity of purpose and light, then no attempt at making alternative views relative, will change its original meaning of purpose.

Which makes real public debate a near impossibility, since no one can tell anymore if what they hear are truths, because they have been trained to believe in whatever suits their views while discrediting all other voices.

Penteller wrote on January 18, 2011 at 9:01 am

Oliver. There you go again!

Oliver.

There you go again! Being all negative on yourself and claiming some sort of mental infirmity, when we all know you have much to offer if you would just shake off the old stinking thinkin.

As for being a stoolie, buz and myself have no hidden agenda and are here for the most ultraistic reasons, although I must confess that your timing in these matters is always most impeccable.

For some there will be warm water and movies, even in the depths of the great depression there were those who had these things, however it will be just fewer of us enjoying them.

Isn’t it interesting - millions of people go every Sunday to hear esoteric predictions in vague descriptions about some future event and everyone says amen! We point to evolving daily events and factual information and are chastised for it.

Brings to mind a great quote by Churchill, “Men occasionally stumble on the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.”

Bluegrass,
A question, how wonderful!
Not a personal dig against the messenger to be seen,
And a great question to boot!

Yes there are untold numbers of individuals who listen to the likes of Limbaugh and others, who are capable of making their own decisions. I personally try and listen as long as I can when he’s on, just to see what the current talking point of the day is, although it is a challenge due to his bombastic and outlandish claims that make it most difficult.

As for MSNBC, the only thing left about it, is the left label put on it by folks like Limbaugh who must have a boogie man to point to, in order to keep the illusion going. As for the Daily show, it is excellent satire that makes one think, and in that it does great service to our society.

The left or right debate is actually a non-issue. It only exists to delude the public and hide the real problem in our society today, that, of a controlled and manipulated media whose jot is herding the population in a predetermined direction.

Something you need to explore further is today’s media, which are owned and controlled by a select group of people. Follow the money, look at who owns them, study what they report and how they report it and then compare it to alternative media sources. You will find that there is so much left out, skimmed over or completely skewed.

Truth is an interesting creature, it is not subjective, there is no gray. Truth either is or it is not and when presented with the truth, people react in one of two ways. They either recognize the truth as being such, or attack the messenger who brought it to them. And, it is the latter that indicates how valid the truth is, because the greater the truth the more agitated and aggressive those who oppose it are to those who brought it.

Let me finish by asking this – did the media’s we’ve just discussed, tell you about the following things happening lately.

Record Bank profits in the billions.
Homeless eating dead birds in our cities.
Food riots around the world because of rapidly escalating food costs.
Devaluation of the dollar causing the spike in gasoline prices.
European banks dumping dollars and buying gold.
Dead children in England from flu shots
Court rules that the Government can keep secret the naked body images gathered through airport scanners.
Gold shortages beginning to occur.
And the list goes on…..

Oliver wrote on January 18, 2011 at 2:01 pm

Truth is what you simply

Truth is what you simply believe it to be. A wise black man, born in 1913, excellent jazz tenor player, said that to me once. 'v'

Penteller wrote on January 16, 2011 at 12:01 pm

What is most interesting in

What is most interesting in these cyber public forums, are the missing right wing, alleged conservatives. Which are in reality nothing more than regressives, trying to take us back, to a place in time fantasy land.

We have found that although they can recited verbatim, all the programmed statements and slogans of their media darlings, they are incapable of conducting any real in-depth conversation.

Un-opposed in public settings you will hear them spout all kinds of outlandish and verbose statements that they have heard. But once engaged and challenged with logical options to their views, will storm off in distain. Usually muttering an attachment to the person that challenged them, with some pat response label they’ve heard.

Here they either do not respond at all and when they do, attack the person presenting the idea, rarely if ever do they ever engage in real idea exchange. This inability to communicate is most distressing, because it breeds incomplete and biased thought patterns, which is fascisms most appreciated handmaiden and gardener.

You will notice that all of today’s right wing screamers such as Limbaugh, O’Realy, etc, never, ever, let anyone on that has the capacity to adequately respond to their drivel. They rely upon repetition to program their masses, repeating the same old lines on new subjects and letting the masses think their being “entertained”, when in fact they’re being programmed.

A programming that breaks down completely in a place such as this and is why you never see them.

bluegrass wrote on January 16, 2011 at 11:01 pm

Penn, I listen to Rush when

Penn, I listen to Rush when I'm in the car and he's on, and I've never seen an episode of O'Reilly. Let me ask you something, don't you think it's possible that there are people on the right who listen to Rush, Hannity, Mark Levin, read George Will, watch Fox News, and are still capable of making their own decisions? I don't understand why if a person leans right politically they are labelled incapable of making their own decisions, but someone in the middle or on the left can watch MSNBC, The Daily Show and read The Onion, but because they lean to the left that makes them better or smarter - capable of making up their own mind.

I hate to presume something about Oliver, but I dare say that he leans to the right, and I've not seen him ever attack anyone on the site. I lean to the right, and I'm not sure I've attacked anyone on the site.

Maybe this fear of the right wing is something built up by the media that some have just bought in to...?

Oliver wrote on January 16, 2011 at 8:01 pm

Gee, Penn and Buzz, IF I

Gee, Penn and Buzz, IF I could be a worthy devil's advocate for the right, I would, but I'd only be an incompetent, comical stool pigeon for you.

From my perch though, I think neither side can be deemed the clear-cut winner of the "drivel and hot air" contest. I see it as very balanced.

The future I predict is that the "red" and "blue" totals will always change with the better and worse economic times, and 10 years from now there will still be McDonalds, Aldis, Wal-Marts on the edge of towns, hot and cold running water in most people's houses, new movies coming out, and ever-growing Blossom Dearie fan clubs,,,and you fellows (if you're still a-postin') will still be issuing your dire warnings of all the impending calamities at hand. Drivel, as beauty, is much in the eye of the beholder. Thank you for your service to this forum. 'v'

Penteller wrote on January 14, 2011 at 3:01 pm

Dag Nab it! I swear buz, you

Dag Nab it!

I swear buz, you do it every time so incredibly well and bring to mind the old saying… “conservatives build roads where radicals blaze a trail”. There I go, like killing snakes, then you come in all sassy n-cool and put a nice tidy neat bow on it! So envious of your winning-ways writing style.

Didn’t the very vitriol and highly threatening “shoot-em all dude” get a job within the Pentagon’s cloak and dagger side, disappearing after some final veiled statements from his new position? They got a good man indeed for their social gerrymandering.

You know we’re on to some real truths when the government threatens you for your views. I just wish more people would follow Eisenhower’s words.

"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionaries and rebels- men and women who dared to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

buzorro wrote on January 14, 2011 at 4:01 pm

How about one from one that

How about one from one that many claim was the most intelligent man to ever hold the highest elective office?

"To announce that there must be NO criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President Right or Wrong, is not only UNPATRIOTIC and SERVILE, but is Morally TREASONABLE to the American Public." Former Republican President, Theodore Roosevelt

thechampaignlife wrote on January 15, 2011 at 10:01 am

How about this one: "I'm

How about this one: "I'm saying when the President does it, it's not illegal." - Nixon

My how far we've come.

Oliver wrote on January 16, 2011 at 9:01 pm

Far in what way? In

Far in what way? In discovering Presidents are not the saints portrayed in the grade school Social Studies books?

As for the literal interpretation of "no man is above the law," it is indeed more figurative since law enforcers are empowered to do many things we private citizens legally can not.....(speed when needed, carry firearms concealed or not on our persons, do all sorts of wiretaps, detain on suspicion)

Regards,

Penteller wrote on January 12, 2011 at 5:01 pm

Buz, Good points one and all

Buz,

Good points one and all – as usual.

MKUltra immediately came to mind when hearing some of the details in the Arizona tragedy. While over time, watching the rapidly tightening noose around our public discourse, the pattern seems to be in place for ever greater restrictions.

One has to wonder what kind of legal drugs the killer was taking that might have caused his rampage (post and link in Health Care in America forum). But our integration and hands-off approach to mental illness can be laid at the doorstep of both liberals and conservatives, as freedom to endanger others is right alongside of health care denial so prominent in the regressive party.

This event will more than likely prompt the Internet Registration law that has been tossed about lately, requiring that we register our systems with the federal government so we can be tracked even further.

When a nation becomes a worlds imperial power, creating wars that make Vice Presidents fifty million plus dollars while in office, whose social constructs are driven by military physiology units, we in turn will become ever more violent ourselves.

Add to that a right wing, military worshiping socio-political movement that places all things military above the needs of the people and you have a recipe for social suicide. What else would explain why Glock pistol sales (the kind used by the shooter) have sky rocked in recent days.

So unless we can motivate people to engage, to debate each other and learn through the experience in a public commons of open exchange, our future is greatly endangered. Because, "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." -- Bertrand de Jouvenel

Oliver,
I don’t ever recall Buz or myself being called a “brainiac” and I’ll take it as a compliment and say thank in.

However, don’t you find it inconceivable that a high school grad and a GED guy who work in factories are the “brainiac’s” in a public forum located in a town full of PHD’s? Guess the 20th thru 30th place positions in world educational standards is truly catching up with us, if this is a good as it gets in Chambana.

Personally I believe it validates what Buz and myself have discussed for years about the ignorant educated that dominate so much of our society today. Those who are book smart but common sense ignorant, individuals incapable of holding conversation on topics outside their limited memorized testing, much less being creative and flexible human beings.

Your response is most appreciated as it completes this phase of posting in a most dramatic way. A subject which could be a grad student’s theses if someone so chose, of how our society has come to value a degree over capability and in doing so limited industry’s potential to include dynamic contributing individuals, while narrowing the validity of those it marginalizes.

But it’s doubtful that will ever happen because it would fly in the face of the industrial consumer based, higher educational system, turning out debt ridden students who will never make the money they were duped into believing they would make.

Meanwhile we become ever more silent in our public debates with each other, afraid that the lack of a sheep skin will make us seen as a lesser being.

buzorro wrote on January 12, 2011 at 8:01 pm

Brainiac! That's a good one

Brainiac! That's a good one that I haven't heard in years (hmmm,...my new nickname for Penn?)

All kidding aside, first let me make one thing perfectly clear. There is no dissatisfaction on my part with the posts that I have read. Generally speaking, they have been on par with the other forums...some constructive, some drivel (but we must think 'happy thoughts') I suspect that, as on the other forums, there are a multitude of lurkers. Just as in the days when people were allowed to actually stand on literal soapboxes and speak their minds (can't do that today), cyber-forums allow for the same form of communication. Back in the day, people might stop and listen to what the elevated speaker had to stay, then move on, or stay awhile longer and offer rebuttals or attaboy's.

In the last several years I've sought out various local people, whom I've never met before but could tell by their letters-to-the-editor in the C-N that they were in possession of at least a portion of the 'truth,' and had long, candid conversations with them. It has been a very enlightening experience, and I might point out that most of them had a few more whiskers than I, if you get my drift. There's a very good reason why, for thousands of years (forever really), the 'elders' have always been held in esteem because of their wisdom. Invariably, at the end of our conversations, the conclusion reached is that the typical American has swallowed the Big Lie,...hook, line and sinker. We know that the typical American could deal with the 'truth,' if given the opportunity, but the Elite, who actually own and run this once-great nation, have enabled themselves to use the 'smoke & mirrors' technique to fool us into thinking that we are 'free.'

The best slave is the one who believes he is free. - author unknown

Since the controlled media will not own up to it's responsibility to be the public's watchdogs, which was what was intended by the very First Amendment to our Constitution, it is now up to the citizens themselves to be the watchdogs...the truth-tellers. And we're very much aware that our message will not change a great many minds (you can lead a horse to water, etc.), but our (Penn...er, Brainiac & I) intention is not to appeal to the close-minded anyway. It's the fence-sitters, the lurkers, who we hope to enlighten. I should also point out that during all of thosed posts during all of those forums, I have repeated over and over that I DO NOT want anyone to 'believe' what I post to be true. No, I encourage everyone to seek out the truth for themselves. Before you call me a wacko, look up the facts first so you don't embarass yourself.

Getting back to the statement that the previous forums were the most active, it might be helpful to understand that the first one started in late '02 when it was obvious that 'we,' under the leadership of George the Younger, were going to bring 'shock & awe' to Iraq, and soon. Knowing that all previous 'wars' for the last 200 years were based on lies for the benefit of the international bankers, I was the lone voice on that forum saying that 'you're being lied to again, sheeple!' Of course I was labelled everything negative that could be thought of by all the other forum members, except for the lurkers (who made up about 90% of the total). But there was one member in particular who's anger and hatred towards me personally caused him to make some pretty outlandish statements.

It seems that he had just finished a tour in the military and was home seeking employment in the private sector (he eventually had to re-enlist to support his family...evidently the there wasn't much demand for ex-killers). He eventually posted that anyone who hadn't served in the military didn't 'deserve' the rights and freedoms that he had personally scarificed so much to protect. He posted earlier that he had served on a submarine and at one point lobbed a few missiles (killing only G_d knows who), then went to the commissary to enjoy some Fritos and a Coke. Yep, that's what our heroes do. Of course, most of the other forum members cheered him on in our lively debates. Meanwhile I wondered if he had access to my identity and would I come home from work one day to find my house burnt to the ground.

We're not likely to see that type of discourse again, here or anywhere. And I surely hope that what I post wouldn't inspire such hatred towards me or anyone. As Ghandi said: There is no 'path to peace,' the 'path is peace.'

Again, believe nothing emanating from the corporate controlled Federal government or the controlled media. Keep the internet free, it's our last hope for mass enlightenment.

Oliver wrote on January 12, 2011 at 10:01 am

Sorry this forum has not

Sorry this forum has not lived up to your "brainiac" expectations.
I've appreciated the generally, ahem, respectful posts if nothing else.
Predictably, I have hardly the dissatisfaction you've expressed.
Regards,

buzorro wrote on January 11, 2011 at 7:01 pm

Ah, yes...a 'Community

Ah, yes...a 'Community Forum.' Penn and I have meandered through almost a half-dozen of these over the years. I'll agree with him that the first one was, by far, the most active. I try to refrain from putting labels on people, though Penn regards himself as a 'progressive,' and far be it for me to say otherwise. (Is 'progressive' a three-dollar word meaning 'liberal?') What brought me to this particular forum is that it originates in a 'university town,' and I was hoping to see some input from said-university students. Back in my day, colleges and universities were much different. There were many more students who were politically active and passionate in their 'causes,' as well as being well-versed in their discourse. But of course we must remember that at that time the Vietnam 'Conflict,' with it's accompanying threat of being drafted into the military, fueled many of those passionate fires on campus.

Such is not the case today, students are, more or less, focused on achieving a 'duh-gree' that will enable them to climb out of the sweltering masses of mere consumers up the corporate ladder. They're not about to risk a 'position' for a 'just cause.' I honestly wish them luck, but am skeptical of their future. There are no jobs today for 80% of the mere BA's. And there won't be. The middle-class is but a whisper of what it used to be, no matter what the economic forecasters say. We are in a full-blown Depression, we never have come out of the 'worst recession since the Depression.'

Back in my day, unemployment figures related to private sector jobs only...not the entire population. Much is made of the fact that WalMart is the largest employer in the world. Yes, in the 'private sector.' By far, the largest employer in the world is the government. When people think of a 'Depression,' they remember seeing the grainy footage of men in suits standing in soup lines. What do you think a Link Card represents?

But I digress...

At some point during cyber-discussions on past forums, the question would always come up: What is considered a valid 'source' of information? Invariably someone would point out that, 'Anyone can say anything on the internet, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily true.' My response has always been that I use the process of elimination. If a source has been proven to be a means of disinformation or misinformation, then obviously that source is not valid no matter how many 'truths' it has otherwise proffered. In recent years our own government and the controlled media have obviously fit in this category. And the media and Congress can't understand why people are turning away from them in favor of the internet for 'real news.'

Case in point: The recent shooting in Arizona. What do we 'know' about the facts surrounding that event? NOTHING! We weren't there. I wouldn't bring up this subject at all because it doesn't affect my life in the least (unless it is used to take away what remains of my dwindling G_d-given rights, which is entirely possible), except I did want to point out to my friend not to jump to conclusions and that whenever there is, what seems to be, a 'national tragedy,' (we've had so many, right?), that there is usually more to the story than meets the eye. The national 'concensus' (led by the controlled media) is that inflammatory political speech was the root cause of the 'lone, nut killer' (where have I heard that before?) going berserk.

'The recent shooting of a US Congresswoman is the natural outcome of our intransient and vitriol dialog that has become this nation’s norm.' - Penn

I'm not so sure...The people who actually knew Jared Lee Loughner (the controlled media's already ID'd him by using his whole name, like all 'lone, nut killers'), say that he was mentally disturbed and had become increasingly so in the previous months, yet no one pointed this out to the authorities? Perhaps that's the price we pay for allowing the liberals,...oops, sorry...to close all the mental institutions, allowing them to walk the streets. And why did the gravely injured Congresswoman, who was the alleged target of Jared's attack, have a link to his website on her website? How is it that the Congresswoman and Jared were both members of the same synagogue, yet no other members or it's Rabbi sensed any thing odd? No, there's still too many unanswered questions for me to make a generalization as to the root cause of that insane act. Perhaps the answers will never come. Perhaps in the not too distant future that 'event' will be referred to only, like 9/11 is today, as a 'reason' to brand all political speech as a hate crime. Hmmm?

In closing, I would just like to say that no one has all the answers and I know Penn would agree that we've all been wrong before. In all my years I'm still delighted to learn things that I never knew before, and have known for a long time that, as the saying goes, 'History books are written by the victors.'