Haven't we already beaten this dead horse to death enough or is the News-Gazette trying to generate some additional circulation with the very usual event of our local defenders of the innocent shooting down a wild-eyed, intoxicated mental case having some sort of temper tantrum?

In before the police haters and conspiracy kooks.

By the way, a big thank you to the University of Illinois police officers who apprehended what could be our serial car burglars here in Savoy at oh-dark-hundred this morning. Not sure why the entire shift was there or why someone even bothered to see something out of the ordinary as this isn't exactly the UI campus, but in any event, THANK YOU for a job well done and we appreciate your good work catching those guys. And tell the loudmouth "shut up" for me as well if you see him again. His whining was terribly annoying and we could hear it over a block away.

-- Joe

Posted by JoeSixpack on July 5, 2009 at 10:39 AM Suggest Removal

Let me see if I understand this correctly: Umpty fully trained and armed police professionals completely surrounding a single crazy guy armed with only a machete were so scared for their lives that the only alternative was to kill him?

Really? The *only* alternative? And the Vermilion County State's Attorney determines this fiasco was fully justified? Makes me glad I don't live in Vermilion County.

And, no, Joe, I'm not a police hater by any means. I have nothing but gratitude and respect for the professional men and women whose often thankless efforts make our world a safer place.

But this is beyond the pale. Our peace officers in east central Illinois need a whole lot more and better training about dealing with the mentally ill. Whether a person is hopped up on drugs or JFN, even the most "wild-eyed, intoxicated mental case having some sort of temper tantrum" among us should never be just "[shot] down" like animals.

I feel sorry for your wife and kids.

Posted by Stubear on July 5, 2009 at 11:38 AM Suggest Removal

- A clear case of racial hatred.

- Even a completely lay person knows immediately what they were supposed to do: shoot the guy into a leg and wait in a safe distance for enough fatigue (due to a blood loss and pain), handcuff him alive, then provide treatment of the wound. Three officers would be enough to do it competently.

- They did not do it because they CHOSE to kill him.

- Should be suspended and tried.

- Other officers should receive training and psychological tests to eliminate racists.

Posted by temp on July 5, 2009 at 2:23 PM Suggest Removal

Stubear,

You comments are absolutely disgusting. You have obviously never encountered a combative or intoxicated mental subject. You have no education whatsoever when it comes to handling a crisis/emergency.

If you think that the Officers named in this article go to work chomping at the bit to kill another human being, you have real issues yourself. Police Officers are judged for the rest of their lives for the actions that they must perform in split seconds to save their own or other's lives.

Do you think the Officers involved in this incident should have reholstered their weapons, sat down in the ditch, built a camp fire and sang songs with Kaiyewu? Maybe asked him very softly and politely to please set his MACHETE down on the ground so they could have a pleasent conversation?

I thank Officer Deckard, Deputy Wertz, Officer Beckman and Sgt Deck for their actions. Thank you for making this area a safer place to live in. This pursuit went directly behind my residence. I could only imagine what would have happened if Kaiyewu would have exited his vehicle and entered my yard/house.

Stubear, maybe your power go out for the rest of your life and you lose the ability to read and type. Your ignorance should never be allowed to leave your thoughts.

Thank You again to the above named Officers. I hope you are all doing well and fulfill the rest of your careers without experiencing another situation like this one. I also apologize for mental midgets named Stubear.

Posted by ameyers67 on July 5, 2009 at 3:18 PM Suggest Removal

Please do not judge these men unless you have walked a mile in their shoes! I'm sure the last thing on their minds that night was who and when will I be able to kill someone. No one knows what happened that night except those that were involved. If you have someone with a weapon in both hands saying they are going to hurt you, you don't shoot them in the leg or in the arm. If this is the attitude you come to work with, you will not make it home to see your family. Mr. Kaiyewu is the person responsible for his death. He chose to take the actions he took. What if he killed several families while he was driving so crazy. What would you think then? I'm sure all of the officers invoved will be greatly effected by that night. Thank you for doing what we cannot. My peace and God's grace be with you all.

Satchmo

Posted by Satchmo on July 5, 2009 at 3:26 PM Suggest Removal

Soooooooooooooo........to get this perfectly clear. Temp..you have heard of, or better yet seen, police intentionally shoot someone in the leg (other than on TV) and then wait for the person to bleed to passing out? I'm not sure I have ever even seen that on a TV show!!! Stubear I ask, what would have been the appropriate response? Let him keep going so he could run to a house and harm the residents? I know.....charge him yelling "Banzai" and hope he doesn't get in a lucky shot with that machete. They tried tasers, didn't work. Tell us all your response in such a situation? I know......hide in your car.

Posted by Jsmith68 on July 5, 2009 at 3:54 PM Suggest Removal

Some of the comments here are laughable... clearly from the layperson's lack of training in deadly force encounters.

Let's cover the fundamentals:

Handgun rounds are tiny, peanut sized pieces of lead that generally work through poking holes and causing blood loss. The lack of blood pressure makes the bad guy quit his aggression as he (or she) blacks out. Nighty night.

This can take hours, although modern ammunition and multiple good, solid hits in the chest can reduce this time down to seconds. It depends on how motivated the bad guy (BG from here forward) is, how well the shots are placed in terms of damage, and the effectiveness of the bullet at causing damage.

And the BG has a vote in this as well. If he doesn't want to quit, even though he's a dead man walking (as in the case of a heart shot), but he is either seriously motivated (p'd off) or high, he may be a threat for minutes before he ceases to be a threat. It's not like Hollywood where BG gets shot and he falls down (or even better, is thrust backward as if swatted by Godzilla). The BGs in Miami that killed all those FBI agents (Google "Miami Shootout") continued their rampage for up to two minutes even though they were fatally wounded.

Okay, so now you've got the short lesson on incapacitation with a pistol, consider this. Any man can cover 21 feet in under 1.5 seconds and deliver great bodily injury (or kill ya) with an edged weapon. Less time than that with a machete as he has to take one fewer steps. Young, fit boys and girls can do it in under one second. As an added "bonus" to the BG (and against the good guy), the BG initiating this scenario gets a quarter second bonus as the good guy (GG) has to "react" to initiation of the attack -- and then deliver rounds on target to stop Mr. BG.

Now, knowing that two, three or even five rounds might take five, ten or even thirty seconds to get Mr. BG to quit his attack, do you want to wait for "Toto" the mental case to hack on you for however long until he blacks out? It might take the inexperienced officer over a second to get four decent shots off and by then he's got a machete bisecting his brain housing group. Does that sound like a plan to you? Oh, heck no.

This is why, in the eyes of the law, anyone with a blunt force instrument or an edged weapon is looked upon as if they have a firearm in terms of their ability to inflict death or great bodily injury upon an innocent.

Cops were trained to shoot center mass to stop the attacker, generally speaking. But when the adrenaline is pumping and some guy is trying to slice and dice you, and the both of you are moving, and you're trying to "multi-task", any hit is a good hit. So the shooting in this instance was statistically above average.

Why don't we shoot in the leg to wing them (Laugh out loud!)? Well, shooting someone is deadly force as it can and often will result in death or great bodily injury. If you shoot him in the leg, he still may be able to hobble over and hack you to death. Or you may hit his femoral and he dies in thirty seconds or a minute anyway. That just gets you sued by ambulance-chasing lawyers like Jan whatshername who are going to put you on the stand and ask you, "So, you didn't think you had justification to use deadly force in shooting to stop the attack, but you thought it okay to use "less" deadly force in an effort to injure my client who subsequently died?"

So, I hope this condensed version of why things happen like they do (and why things don't happen like on TV) helps clarify for some of you so you don't post similar tripe in the future, exposing your uneducated analysis to things you don't really understand.

Just because the BG is mentally deranged, high as a kit, retarded, a minor child, or looks just plain ugly, dead is dead no matter who delivers the wound.

Frankly, these officers exhibited a great deal of restraint. They wanted this call to end without anyone getting hurt. But given "Toto" and his violent tirade with a big old machete, after leading cops on a long chase in a reckless manner indifferent to innocent human life, following his assault and aggressive, illegal behavior towards the Villa Grove officer, Toto made the decision to commit suicide by cop.

It was a good, righteous shoot. A sad day for all involved, but a justifiable use of deadly force to protect innocent life (in this case the cops... and after them, civilians like you and me) from a menacing man berserk with a dangerous weapon.

The officers did what had to be done.

Not sure why he was mentally unsound - it doesn't really matter.

In the end though, he's no longer a threat to innocent people.

Posted by JoeSixpack on July 5, 2009 at 6:52 PM Suggest Removal

Now for some harsh criticism of apparently one or more of the officers: the obstructionist attitude of the cops towards the EMTs.

Even if the guys was clearly DRT (dead right there), what's the harm in having them check for vitals?

Was someone on a power trip? Or was someone having a really bad day (understandable if one just did something as profound as shooting someone else, even if they had it coming) and being an a-hole?

In either event, if there's any discipline to happen here, it would be as a result of this:

CLIP

An emergency crew from the Kickapoo Fire Protection District was the first medical vehicle to arrive at the scene.

But Josey Jordan of Danville said officers became angry with him and members of his crew because their vehicle drove through the crime scene tape. Jordan said he could see a figure lying on the pavement, but angry deputies blocked crew members from examining him.

Jordan, according to police reports, said they were "told by Vermilion County deputies to put their bags on the truck, that they were not going to be allowed to treat him."

Jordan protested that members of the medical crew are required by law to treat or check for signs of life, "but they were warned by deputies that they would be arrested if they approached (Kaiyewu)." Obviously irritated by what happened, Jordan told a state police investigator that deputies "did not want them to do or see anything at the scene."

A second medical crew, this one from Oakwood EMS, arrived not long after only to be told that just one person would be allowed to examine Kaiyewu. Lisa Keller of Oakwood said there was no sign of breathing or pulse. An EKG she ran detected no heart beat, either.

[END CLIP]

That part bothers me and seems to have been very poorly handled by the officers involved in telling the EMTs to buzz off. I think if I'd been the EMT first on the scene I'd have told that cop, "You'll have to arrest me and we'll see where it goes in court, pal. Step aside so I can assess the patient." Frankly, I think the EMT would have a clear case for a federal civil rights suit against the officer... and, even worse...

If it hadn't been for the head shot, I'd say Toto's family *MIGHT* have had an action that had medical care been promptly given that he might have lived. Even though survival wasn't likely, it would have been up to the jury. Who knows, this may be the door the decedent's family uses to go after the agencies and/or officers involved as no jury's going to give damages purely on events leading up to Toto getting perforated.

Rookie mistakes like this can cost agencies big payouts.

-- Joe

Posted by JoeSixpack on July 5, 2009 at 7:11 PM Suggest Removal

First and foremost, as an EMT myself, Josey Jordan was in the wrong. Any EMT/Firefighter worth thier salt and properly trained knows you don't enter a crime scene where there has been trauma from weapons, ESPECIALLY, if the suspect is still there. You stage at a safe distance and wait for officers on the scene to tell you when it is okay to enter. Futhermore, there are different license levels of EMT's. I am BLS (Basic Life Support). Paramedics are ALS (Advanced Life Support). Too bad Josey had too big of an ego and violated the crime scene tape instead of staging like he supposedly learned in his training. Then he has the audacity to whine and cry to investigators about how he was mistreated and not allowed in the scene. He may even be one of those EMT's who violates the HIPPA Act and tells everyone what he witnessed.

Next let's talk about the officers involved. I have first hand knowledge of the training involved in becoming a police officer, and yes, a physcological evaluation is required during the hiring process. How do I know? You figure it out. Officers trained in weapons and use of force get the highest level of training, and no, they are not trained to shoot someone in the leg. 2 rounds center mass. If its a failure, then one shot to the head. How do I know this? You figure it out.

Finally lets look at the article itself. The writer must be some kind of sensationalist left-leaning opinionated liberal drive-by type reporter. There are many subtle hints in his article where he appears to know what everyone was thinking, including the store clerk at the Villa Grove Mobil Super Pantry (his first paragraph). Silly me, thinking that reporters wrote the facts and never inject any type of personal opinion. I guess ratings and news paper sales are more important than true facts.

Posted by bdg682 on July 6, 2009 at 12:55 AM Suggest Removal

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that in the past several months the News Gazette has gone from reporting the news to sensationalizing the news? It is my understanding that with the economy in the tank the newspaper is in trouble and doesn't wish to be bought out. Understandable, but come on report the news, stop trying to turn into the National Enquirer.

Posted by Jsmith68 on July 6, 2009 at 11:18 AM Suggest Removal

JSmith: Yes, we've noticed. We've also noticed the number of pages is shrinking too.

Good news or boring news apparently doesn't sell papers.

Posted by JoeSixpack on July 6, 2009 at 6:02 PM Suggest Removal

ZZZZzzzzzzzz,way to run something into the ground NG. This is the reason why I stopped getting your paper. Way to shake up the misinformed Independent Media, as if they needed any help but this article should really get them fired up!

Posted by wow1 on July 6, 2009 at 11:05 PM Suggest Removal

@amyers67

Wow. So much hatred!

So it's disgusting to suggest that our local police need more and better training, eh?

Actually, I have had a great deal of experience in dealing with the deranged and combative, and at one time worked with the police in Boston doing exactly the kind of training that I, and probably the officers involved themselves, wish they had had.

When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. My guess is that every single one of the law enforcement professionals on the scene at this incident will have nightmares about the shooting for the rest of their lives, and would be more than happy to have more training on dealing with the mentally ill and add more tools to their toolboxes.

There are a number of alternatives to deadly force in situations like this, but in order to use them the officers need to be thoroughly trained and properly equipped, and these guys were neither. That's not their fault. I don't think for a second that any one of them was looking to go out and kill themselves a crazy person that night.

Sheesh! Take a time-out or something.

Posted by Stubear on July 7, 2009 at 1:55 PM Suggest Removal

@Joe Sixpack

Sorry for the gratuitous slam about your family. I jumped to some conclusions that your subsequent posts clearly showed to be way off the mark. You were spot-on about the shoot-em-in-the-leg nonsense. Somebody's been watching too much TV if they think that ever happens except by accident.

Alternatives to deadly force in dealing with people who are out of their minds include some relatively inexpensive options like rubber bullets (still risky but WAY less likely to be lethal), non-lethal shotgun loads, and believe-it-or-not, good old-fashioned webbed netting.

I personally think that the Taser has done more harm than good to policing in general -- not because it can be dangerous to the 'perps' (although it can) but because the bureaucrats see it as a cheap alternative to the older methods (and additional training they require) of capture and restraint. So our poor officers are sent out on the street with two alternatives: Tase into submission, or shoot to kill. We've all seen how effective a Taser is against an adrenaline-filled 'crazy.'

I don't blame the officers involved for what happened, but I do blame the county administrators who want good policing but aren't willing to shell out the money to do it right!

Posted by Stubear on July 7, 2009 at 2:28 PM Suggest Removal

Stubear,

I will take a timeout when you armchair quarterbacks stop drawing your own conclusions to situations that you have no knowledge about whatsoever. You make these officers out to be monsters.

I am ecstatic for the people of Boston that you no longer "work" with the Boston Police Department. I just might have to add that city to "my place to visit" list now. The scary thing is, is that we have one more idiot locally now, you!

I hope you are put in the same situation as these brave officers one day and we can all sit back and criticize your actions. Wait, you won't make it out of the encounter.

Go hug a tree, put on socks with your birkenstock sandals and drive your Toyota Prius.

Posted by ameyers67 on July 7, 2009 at 6:41 PM Suggest Removal

I have to reply to BDG682’s response about how he perceived Josey Jordan’s actions on scene. I obviously was not there but I find several things wrong with his suppositions. He says, “Any EMT/Firefighter worth thier [sic] salt and properly trained knows you don't enter a crime scene where there has been trauma from weapons, ESPECIALLY, if the suspect is still there.” Well yes… that is correct to a point but the suspect is the victim and so you have to enter to treat him or her. I can only assume that police on scene said that it was ok for medical to enter as they had control of the scene and made it safe for medical staff to enter. Correct you do NOT enter a scene when it is not secured first by police officers. They carry the guns/tasers/etc. to make a scene safe for ALL there… victims, suspects, themselves and other fire/EMS responders. As far as driving through crime scene tape, you need to be very careful with a crime scene. Are there casings there that you do not see and run over? The proper procedure would be to stop at the crime scene tape edge and have police officers escort them to the victim. Josey I am sure, as the first EMT on scene was REQUIRED by his EMS licensure to follow the following protocol concerning EMS Involvement in Crime Scenes. Its purpose is to define those situations in which Police personnel, who have examined the victim, determine in their judgment that a victim is dead and rightly deny entry to Fire/EMS personnel in order to maintain the integrity of a potential crime scene. The procedure then is as follows:

First, when Police personnel arrive before Fire/EMS personnel at the scene of an incident that involves what appears to be the death of a victim, they shall report the general condition of the victim to the Fire/EMS personnel. Secondly, if the victim shows signs of lividity, rigor mortis, decomposition, or has been decapitated (A gunshot wound to the head is NOT decapitated!!!!), then they shall report the condition of the victim to the Fire/EMS personnel in these terms. If the victim is reported by Police personnel to show any of these conditions, then Fire/EMS personnel will not be required to examine the victim or run an EKG strip. Third if the previous conditions are not present, then Police personnel shall allow two Fire/EMS personnel to check the condition of the patient (obtain history; determine pulselessness/no respirations/unresponsiveness). Personnel should then contact Medical Control immediately. Fourth fire/EMS personnel who are involved in providing care for a victim that may not be a viable patient need to be cognizant of the need to maintain the integrity of a potential crime scene. Finally, other conditions will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. If other conditions are present that are obviously inconsistent with life, such as total evisceration or extreme disfigurement and distortion of the body, then Police personnel must describe the condition of the victim to the Fire/EMS personnel. The Fire/EMS personnel will then make a determination as to whether or not the victim should be evaluated for signs of life and the ultimate decision in this case rests with Fire/EMS personnel.

Last time I knew there were two people under Illinois law who can call someone dead legally. That is the Coroner (or their designate like a Deputy Coroner) or a Doctor (or their designate like an EMT calling into the hospital medical control talking to a Doctor and providing an assessment via the phone to make said determination). So BDG682… I am not sure where you got your EMT training but I think you need a refresher on what current Law and Illinois Department of Public Health approved Regional Medical Protocols state about a crime scene. Do I think that this patient was probably dead and nonviable… yes I do. However, could I make that determination without getting a full assessment on him by laying hands on him and attaching diagnostic equipment on him…? NO! I have been involved in EMS/Fire Service/Police Service for multiple years… we are all one big team but those of us who think we are better then the others typically are the ones that are burned. The Vermillion County Deputies that prevented access to the patient are probably going to get in trouble (either financially for the department or professionally) as any lawyer worth their salt can pull up these procedures and quote them and probably get some dough for the patient dying even if there was probably little to nothing that could be done. As far as whether the actions of the police officers were justified in shooting the victim... I think they were. I personally know several of the officers involved and without a doubt know that they would only have fired their duty weapons at another human being if it were absolutely necessary. I mean come on… we are talking about human life here people. You do not just take it so cavalierly or say, “They shot him because he was black!” They shot him because he was an armed subject that was failing to comply with the lawful orders of police officers and made moves and gestures as if he was going to cause bodily harm to the officers. End of story!

Posted by djdunn2 on July 8, 2009 at 6:11 AM Suggest Removal

All you ignorant souls...There are many other ways to subdue a single guy with only a machete. 12 "trained" cops vs one single guy who was completely surrounded. And all the cops combined didn't have enough training to know how else to bring him down? All these small town cops who never get to experience any action and are so trigger-happy when an opportunity comes along. Puh-lease! ...and one bullet cudn't do it huh? They had to get a filled day, innit?

Posted by please on July 8, 2009 at 12:25 PM Suggest Removal

innit? What's that word. Probably should check that one out on the urban dictionary.

Well said djdunn2!

Posted by wow1 on July 8, 2009 at 1:09 PM Suggest Removal