I had a serious epiphany (and do those hurt) after posting in the Pensions and Healthcare thread, so it seemed appropriate to create a new thread on the subject of governmental employees and their seeming “entitled” attitudes.
In August 1973, several bank employees were held hostage for six days in a Stockholm bank vault by would be robbers. Over time, the victims became emotionally attached to their captors and even rejected assistance from officials. An attachment that was so great, the captives even defended the criminals after the ordeal.
Simply stated; the “Stockholm Syndrome” is where individuals who are held captive over extended periods of time, eventually become sympathetic to their captors. Given enough time, the captives may even begin to support their captors beliefs and/or causes.
This syndrome is present in virtually all family and spousal abuse, wherein the victims believe that what the abuser is doing is not totally wrong and may in fact be the result of some personal failure on the part of the victim in not pleasing the abuser enough.
I’ve seen this in history, in family affairs and personal relationships, it is also present in many business settings and easily observed. I cannot count the number of times, where I’ve seen a Mask Of Sanity boss, regularly abuses and uses those in their charge, to the point of mental and physical decline, yet the employee will rally behind and defend their abuser.
In one situation I witnessed a man who was a business serial killer, destroying one successful business after another. He was also an emotional Vampire, who after a few days of being nice and becoming weakened, would walked into a room, chose a victim to scream at and became re-energized as he did. Bounding out of the room afterward, refreshed and happy, leaving his victim in utter despair.
He was a charismatic individual who was one of the most abusive and destructive persons you could ever meet, yet was supported and regularly recommended by a top accounting firm at the time. A serial abuser who to this day is defended and admired by some of the employees who worked for him, even though he eventually cost them their jobs when he bankrupted the company.
My father lived the last couple years of his life in a nursing home and his “institutionalization” was a phenomenal thing to witness. Over a short period of time, we watched a man who had been fiercely independent and loved the outdoors, become totally obsessed with the cloistered routine and irritably anxious to return when on outings.
He was a man who was always a stickler for honesty and fair play, yet once institutionalized, never noticed some of the very negative situations that would sometimes arise through poor nursing care and was always ready to defend his caregivers actions regardless of their transgressions.
So with all this said, I could not figure out after all the truth presented in these threads, how some people could so easily dismiss facts and disrespect me. After posting a reply to Sid Saltfork in the Illinois Retirement thread it hit me and after this point, it is probably safe to add to the “Stockholm” list, the “institutional” members of our society who work for governmental agencies.
They are individuals who have spend years, decades and even lifetimes, living off the sustenance of our taxes, as they grow financially comfortable in their well supported and guaranteed lifestyles. Incomes and benefits that are beyond what most Americans can even dream of. A cocoon of stability, guaranteed by law, comfortably lined with bureaucratic fleece and protected by union muscle.
If there were ever a group so reliant upon, so entirely immersed in and so utterly influenced by - it is an institutionalized government employee.
So it makes perfect sense for people like Buz and myself, who like most Americans have no security in our jobs and little recourse when regularly abused by our bosses, to be attacked by those who do not understand. For we must be rabble, who challenges their aspersions of a benevolent system that has given them life well healed, and to challenge the Government who has fed and clothed them all their life - is beyond reprehensible.
All of this is a most telling thing and brings to mind the question: Is all this a possible “Eichmann Syndrome”, wherein techno/autocrats are easily persuaded that they need to just “process” the citizens onto the awaiting cattle cars, because it is their duty as a Government employee? Besides the cattle cars will take those social malcontents to a better place. Right?
Which also begs the question - Buz, how many do you think, of those that have attacked us through the years, were current or former governmental employees?
Beneath all of penteller's
Beneath all of penteller's outlandish hyperbole in this thread, there is some truth buried within.
I agree with the basic premise that government employees have become rather overly entitled and spoiled, particularly in Illinois, and that they do not "deserve" rights and benefits that the rest of the working public don't have.
I do see the fundamental unfairness of taking away promised payments and benefits from those who had worked or have been working for the state for all or most of their adult lives.
However, I have seen firsthand many who have developed an overbearing sense of entitlement during their numerous years of public employment. For example, an older relative of mine who worked in a state prison for over 20 years before his retirement. Even though he was not the most thrifty man during his working years and did not save a whole lot, since retirement he has still managed to afford an addition onto his house, as well as a convertible.
In addition, his wife died a few years before his retirement. About three or four years later, as I remember, he married a woman 20 years his junior who worked at the same prison. She recently retired as well. Now, when he dies, she will recieve both her substantial pension and his. That must be nice.
Oh, and both this relative and his current wife retired a year or two after turning 55. That also must be nice.
The rest of us in the family, those of us not used to such sweet hookups from our employers, have learned to never query or argue with them when it comes to their pension or benefits. It is always responded to with a tirade that you would expect from someone who was just delivered what they consider to be the most offensive personal insult.
Neither of them were CO's.
Neither of them were CO's. They worked in the office.
Like I said, Sid, I am not comfortable with taking away promised benefits or payments from people who have or had worked for the state for a long time.
However, I support immediate changes for new hires and for those who have not worked for the state for a long time. No more benefits that non-public employees don't recieve. They should be working the same hours for the same pay and retiring at the same age. That is only fair.
If non-public employees lose
If non-public employees lose their 401k money, should public employees lose their pensions? If non-public employees are required to work 60 hours per week, should public employees be required to work the same hours?
I understand your points, alabaster; but take into consideration the changes in the American work place for non-public employees. They have seen no wage growth for awhile. They are working longer hours. They have lost benefits. They have lost unions. They have seen their employers come, and go. They have seen companies sold. The last 12 years have changed the middle class.
The new hires in public employment are required to work until age 67. They are being placed on a 401k type retirement plan. Your wants have come true for the new hires. Of course; their employer, the State of Illinois, will not fund the 401ks anymore than it funded the pensions. The retirees paid with every paycheck their pension contributions. They were hired under an agreement that their work would be for benefits in retirement.
I have no beef with you. I appreciate your second paragraph. However, I have grown tired of the public employees being blamed for the state's financial woes. The employees did not cause it. The corrupt legislators, and governors caused it with pork barrel spending for votes, and "campaign donations" (bribes). A revolving group of grifters known as Illinois politicians did not pay the bills, and debts. They lined their pockets while diverting money owed to "projects" such as Build Illinois. I will do everything in my power to discredit the pols, and fight the public employee haters.
I recently had a relative rant on against public employees. I reminded him that it was his choice not to pursue an education, and to accept his factory job back home. I, also, reminded him of my kicking his tail when we were kids. He shut his mouth after that.
Your relative was required to
Your relative was required to pay into his pension with every paycheck. His employer was supposed to pay into it also; but did not make payments regularly. Your relative was to receive .022% of (not 22 %) of his highest four year average pay for each year employed. If he were on the other schedule; he would have received .0167% plus Social Security since he was required to pay into both the pension system, and Social Security. If he retired at age 55, and started employment at age 22; he would have worked 33 years. If he was on the .022 % pension without Social Security, he would have received 72.6% of his average highest four years. If he was on the .0167%; he would have received 55.11% of his average highest four years. He would not have been eligible for Social Security until at least age 62.
Your relative was not given the opportunity to have a 401K plan since he was required to pay into the pension system. When 401K plans were doing well, public employees heard from others that their pension was hurting them since the others were making money on their 401K plans. Now that the 401K's tanked due to the recent recession, the others are angry about public employees receiving defined pensions. The big financial fall that is coming in the future will be the result of workers dipping into their 401K plans due to periods of being laid off, buying homes, and paying off debts. The public employees had nothing to do with any of the problems of the 401Ks. They paid into their pensions when their employer did not pay it's required payment.
I disagree with the "overbearing sense of entitlement" statement since paying into one's pension is not an "entitlement". I can understand your uncle's tirade. He did nothing wrong. He applied for, tested for, was interviewed for, and accepted employment as Correctional Officer. He worked in a dangerous environment for his pension. He worked for the pension.
Alabaster, I have agreed with you on other issues; but this is not one of them. Illinois public employees are not "overly entitled, and spoiled". They paid into their pension; but their employer did not. It is their money, not the public's money. Sadly, I read your comment as one of envy, and jelousy toward your uncle. By the way, your uncle's wife may receive 1/2 of her husband's pension; she does not receive all of it. People choose their employment with, or without it's benefits, based on their interests, and skills. Choosing to be a Correctional Officer is a hard choice.
I doubt I'd call a
I doubt I'd call a correctional officer overly entitled and spoiled. I'm not doing that job for 20 years - I'm not even doing that job for 20 seconds.
I have made this point many
I have made this point many times over the last 40 years as I noted my father working for the U of I and what he said about his experience there. Furthermore his actual experience while dealing with the union he represented as an employee.
I believe there is something to this. I've noticed that those who work for government feel they are entitled to things. Even my Dad felt he was. He did have some valid points that he took less per hour but received an excellent pension in exchange however my complaint has always been that no one is holding you hostage to this place or job and you could leave when you want. It's not the freaking "Hotel California". But for them........perhaps it is.
I have been self employed all of my life and as I near the mid-fifties I look at what I gave up and what I have to show for my diligence in business. I gave up an early retirement as many of my friends who are county deputies and U of I employees have had to enjoy.
I am still working.
I gave up institutional health care, I have to pay out of pocket for it and with Obamacare I pay dearly now for it. So much for free. That was a joke and we all knew it. Those who are not on the dole knew it.
I agree with you Penteller, but it takes an honest man to see this truth. Truth is hidden from the man who has had it easy on the public dole.
'....He did have some valid
'....He did have some valid points that he took less per hour...'
I work in a manufacturing facility that has what is called a 'tool room.' Workers in that skilled trade make the highest wages. Every time there is a rumor of a job opening at the U of I in a lab that involves constructing things for professors or students, a few of our toolmakers will hurry over there to apply for it. We lost one last year. The U of I pays almost 50% more than the same job in the private sector.
'Living wage,' indeed.
I take it that you are not a
I take it that you are not a toolmaker. It must bother you that they are higher paid based on their skilled trade. Toolmakers do have training that makes them competitive in the job market.
Point #1) Now why in the
Point #1) Now why in the world would you think I am 'bothered' by that? Are you so desperate?
Point #2) Yes, SS, highly-skilled workers are more competitive in the jobs market, but again, you're ignoring the point I made that their wages can be much higher as a government-employee union member than in the private sector.
Check out the salaries per
Check out the salaries per the classifications for public service jobs. If there is any reason that they may be higher, it is that private sector jobs have lowered wages over the recent years. Have you checked out what a warehouse worker with a forklift certificate gets paid now versus a few years ago? Yes, private sector jobs have decreased in wages due to the decrease in private sector unions. A local place is now paying $8.00 an hour for a forklift operator. That is $16,640.00 per year, or $1,386.67 per month. Many private sector employers work employees less than 32 hours per week to avoid paying benefits. You blame the public service employees for that? Of course, you would not blame the employers who are raking in more profits than ever before. Your probably supporting Right to Work. That attitude has caused the decline in the middle class. It is bootlicker mentality.
'Bootlicker?' Again with the
'Bootlicker?' Again with the name-calling?
Yes, private sector jobs have decreased in wages due to the decrease in private sector unions. - SS
Wages in the private sector have been flat for almost forty years because corporations moved overseas. Until government entities can do the same, then those unions will forever have the taxpayer by the cajones. Which is the original argument of why government unions have grown while those in the private sector have shrunk.
What do you call a professor?
Someone who can't make it in the real world.
Ooooo... name calling. What
Ooooo... name calling. What is the "real world"? There is only one; and it is real unless you live in fantasies.
Your father put food on the
Your father put food on the table which you ate. Your father put a roof over your head which kept you warm. Your father put clothes on your back. I will not continue listing what your father provided to you; but he was able to do it with a livable wage. Now, you critize your father out of what; envy, selfishness, greed....? Public employees work for their income. They are not "on the public dole". Only simpletons would compare workers to those on welfare.
Shapemaster, you are a new commentor. Yet, your logic seems familiar. I read your other new comments of today. You fit in well with Pen, buz, and Citizen1. All you need to do now is spout conspiracy theories with fantasies of "cattle cars", "institutionalized employees", and nazis. You have potential to be the secretary of the treehouse club.
'...your logic seems
'...your logic seems familiar...' - SS
Sooo, are you 'getting it,' yet? You know...maybe it's not the whole world that's going crazy after all?
The "whole world" maybe just
The "whole world" maybe just a few. Yeah, I am "getting it". How many commenters can one commenter be?
"All I know is just what I
"All I know is just what I read in the papers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance.” ― Will Rogers
Sid,
WOW!
Man - how I do love you Sid!
Please don’t ever change a thing, as you are the best supporter we could ever have!
You’re statement, “it was not "Otto Eichmann" who was the nazi caught, and tried by Israel. You don't even know your history”, is the perfect example of the subliminal programming, used in training people today. And is the reason why I choose to use his first name, to assist in helping break the programming block, inserted through institutionalized education.
Otto Adolph Eichmann, German SS lieutenant colonel, was the Nazi hung by Israel in 1962. But, that is not how his name is highlighted, nor is it how any reference is broadcast about him. Instead, the name associated with death and destruction is used, as a way of re-enforcing and keeping the hatred stirred up.
It’s very doubtful that when Hitler was in power, Eichmann would have ever used his middle name as an SS officer. So it is obviously a contrived and conscious effort on the part of the people who program the hypnotized to use his middle name, so as to make it easy for those who do not think, in remembering his name.
“Those who are capable of
“Those who are capable of tyranny are capable of perjury to sustain it.” ― Lysander Spooner
When I use the metaphor of “Eichmann” (German SS), it is to define those military personnel and government employees, who enthusiastically perform their tasks with a complacency toward their fellow citizens. Autocrat and technocrats who methodically perform tasks that are ultimately against the good of their own society and countrymen.
I’m referring to the 20 and 30 something young persons who has played video games all their life, sitting in the ultimate video control room in Kansas, flying a robot machine a world away and pushing buttons that kill woman and children. A process controlled by the ultra secret CIA who decides who is to die and when, a killing ultimately authorized by a Nobel Peace Prize President with a secret kill list. All of whom are now subject to war crimes.
Then there are the TSA screeners who watch naked images and physically fondle men, women and children every day, who rob from our luggage and sometimes rape. A massive group of ENFORCERS who are beyond our ability to monitor or audit their activities, an ENFORCEMENT group who now expands into bus, rail and even road transportation systems to inflict their abuse.
I’m also referring to the employees of the massive spying infrastructure in this country that has all of our emails archived and analyzed by automated algorithms that accumulate names of “persons of interest”. The phone company systems that create and maintain information on every call made by every person in America, along with massive recording systems that never require a warrant, automated robot systems used to analyze conversations and connect those of interest.
We then have our ENFORCEMENT personnel who from the Federal to the local level are interconnected and use regional Fusion Centers to collect data and keep lists of local persons of interest. ENFORCEMENT that is now mostly paramilitary trained and equipped, who regularly get away with crimes against society, through rulings by ever increasing numbers of ultra-conservative judges who belong to a world wide secret society.
This downward spiral of a once fee society is accelerating - the countless FEMA locations around the country with barb wire that points inward along with massive stockpiles of burial boxes - a sign of things to come. Then there are the impenetrable concrete walls that now surround our nation’s major cities, walls that can easily make them prison ghettos.
So when you look at where we are and where we are headed, the ”Eichmann Syndrome” is a very real phenomena. And as these organizations hire ever more psychopath employees who wear The Mask of Sanity, we will eventually see atrocities committed, unlike the world has ever seen before. Horrific events that will make Otto Eichmann seem like a benevolent brother.
First, it was not "Otto
First, it was not "Otto Eichmann" who was the nazi caught, and tried by Israel. You don't even know your history.
Second, your paranoid rants indicate the need for professional help. No one in their right mind believe the conspiracy junk you spout. You have buzaro, and Citizen1 following you sometimes; but that makes your condition worse. CIA, TSA, and FEMA are not evil. They protect, and serve America. If you have been prescribed meds, take them. If not, make an appointment with a professional for an evaluation. You, and I both know that you need help.
You go, SS! As you said, and
You go, SS! As you said, and always so eloquently, there are only a few of us right-wingnuts spouting mindless rants, while you and the myriad of of your followers who are quick to jump on your band-wagon...oops!...my mistake,...seems you're the only one sticking to the Rush 'Pills' Limbaugh line.
I realize it's hard to be humble, harder still to admit that you are the one in the wrong, but to be so close-minded...A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Let's just go ahead and have a poll of sorts. All of those who agree with SS, say so. All those in Penn's corner, say 'Aye.'
Keep in mind, SS, that whatever is expressed in Penn or my posts are not directed towards you. We're putting things out there for people who aren't close-minded, the curious, those who want to think for themselves. All of your recent posts, however, have been just the opposite. Intentional personal attacks on our veracity. Who is the bigger man here, and who is resorting to childlike behavior? Sticks and stones...
If I were king for a day, I'd ban you in a minute.
I think you're both loons.
I think you're both loons.
Wow. I never thought of it
Wow. I never thought of it in that way. You really have something there. Even after their benefits are cut and the gravey train stops due to lack of funds, they will still be screaming about their rights and about how they are entitled. The States needs to cut to the chase and just cut the benefits now.
Pen; A disjointed, rambling,
Pen; A disjointed, rambling, verbose attack without paragraphs demonstrates the need for help. You used to post comments on daily articles. Now, it is topics you create on the discussion forum. Not many people read, and agree with them except for the few who are easily impressed like dogs staring at their reflections in the water. This current attack on public employees is base. It is the only reason that I responded.
Perhaps; you should consider building a treehouse for you, and your followers.
You keep proving Pen's
You keep proving Pen's point. Name calling is childish and will get you no where. Come to the real world out of the dream land where you are entitled.
My goodness; your just as
My goodness; your just as sick as he is. He has no point. He has no arguments. He just rambles on, and on without competent dialouge. The comments on "cattle cars", and "Eichmann" when discussing state employees are only indicative of his sickness. His exaggerations may appeal to you, and buzarro; but they do not to the intelligent citizens of the state. Your hanging out there on the fringe if you follow such a delusional prophet.
I am not entitled. I am owed what I worked for, paid into, and is guaranteed by law. There are thousands of us. There are, also, thousands who are intelligent enough to agree with us. I would not have responded to you, buzarro, or Pen if the hatred, and ignorance had not been expressed by the three of you. Come on; "institutionalized employees, "cattle cars", "Eichmann", etc.. are not "childish name calling"? He is a mentally unbalanced man; and your assisting in his illness. Don't you see that? Why do you think he no longer posts comments on the main news articles? Why do you think he creates "discussions" where few people except you read them?