Pensions and healthcare

As all of the furor over pensions and healthcare are becoming an everyday subject, I have always found it hard to believe that anyone actually thinks any entity be it private or public would owe anyone anything when they stop working. (retire) Common sense would tell you that supporting people who contribute nothing anymore is just bad business and cannot continue forever.

#1 [2]

Penteller [3] wrote on December 08, 2012 at 9:12 am

Citizen1,Yes, a little part

Citizen1,

Yes, a little part time job by some Governmental employees would be in order, giving them a sense of how the rest of society has to live

As for not having a say in Danville’s teacher negotiations - I’m not absolutely positive, but isn’t the Superintendent of Schools a major negotiator in all this? Based on what we have seen in the past, the Danville Superintendent position is a scratch your back retirement system, letting folks move up for short periods of time so as to get a huge boost in retirement income. It’s also a case of the fox watching the chickens, with regard to negotiations. All very troubling and should never happen.

There is however a probable down side to curtailing the bloated benefits of governmental employees. When asked who is buying all the new cars and things, it’s a safe bet it’s mostly governmental employees – they’re the only ones with significant disposable income. So by getting them cautious about their future income, it could impact everything else.

But then it’s all a house of cards based on borrowed money we can never repay, so the sooner it collapses the sooner we can start over.

#2 [4]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on December 12, 2012 at 10:12 am

Your blowing non-factual

Your blowing non-factual propaganda. You accuse government employees of "buying all the new cars and things". What an outrageous assumption, and accusation. You spout things with no facts. Your real concern is your greedy self as demonstrated with your statement: "it's all a house of cards based on borrowed money we can never repay". "We" includes all of us even the government employees who, also, pay taxes. It is "borrowed money" which is a debt owed. Your solution is to fault on the debt. It demonstrates the illegal, and immoral mindset which you possess. Forget about the "start over". No lending institution will loan money to thieves. Welching on the debt means welching on the bondholders also. Simple solutions from simpletons always have disasterous results.

The facts are that the employer did not pay the required employer contribution into the pension systems for years. No private employer would have been legally allowed to do that. The money in the pension systems is the employees money which they paid with every paycheck. States cannot declare bankrutpcy due to their ability to raise taxes, and fees. The State of Illinois Constitution does not allow pensions to be "diminished, or impaired". The State of Illinois as the employer cannot default on the pensions due to the state constitution, and contract law. There are many fewer government employees trying to provide services to citizens than there was three years ago. The number keeps shrinking due to young people deciding not to enter public service based on what is happening. The current government employees have not received contract raises of 5% over a three year period. A judical decision this last week requires the State of Illinois to honor it's signed contract with the employees.

You rant about government employees earning more; but you fail to explain specific differences. Education, and skills are reasons why they earn more. If you can not pass the test for a classification such as Caseworker, Case Coordinator, Electrian, etc.... ; it is not the fault of those who do pass the test, and possess the qualifications. It is your lack of education, and skills that have you doing whatever you do for an income. Your comparing apples with oranges with your simple propaganda, and thought process.

#3 [6]

Citizen1 [7] wrote on December 08, 2012 at 8:12 am

Right on, Pen. Unfortunately

Right on, Pen. Unfortunately Danville teachers pensions may be forced upon property owners who did not vote on the bloated teachers pensions nor have any voice in the new contracts. Illinois is heading for a taxpayer revolt between the over paid, under worked fat cat public employees and those who have to pay for it. Public employee can rant and rave all they want but the well is dry. No one who currently provides goods and services to the state is being paid on time. Soon they will walk off the job. Maybe Sid can get off his duff and start repairing road and bridges.

#4 [8]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on December 08, 2012 at 1:12 pm

Comments from the mentally

Comments from the mentally ill, and a well to do farmer. "Do you know how a farmer can double his income? Put up a second mailbox for additional government subsidies!" The only tax that you both evidently pay is the state liquor tax. Couple of right wing nuts.

#5 [9]

Penteller [3] wrote on December 07, 2012 at 5:12 pm

It appears that the proposed

It appears that the proposed legislation in Illinois, to begin curtailing the over compensation of state employees, looks like a good beginning. Any kind of curtailment is most welcome.

Unfortunately we still have local issues, such as Danville’s teacher contract negotiations, which leave us wondering if the school board has the testicular fortitude in standing their ground against the power of overpaid and over compensated administrators and teachers.

#6 [10]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on December 07, 2012 at 8:12 pm

Read the news. A judicial

Read the news. A judicial ruling today requires the governor to honor the union raises that he signed a contract on, and later reneged on. The same will happen with the "proposed legislation" regarding theft of the earned public employee pensions. Contract law, and the state constitution prevents it.

By the way, who is "we"? You, and your other in the mirror; or your gang of two, or three?

Now, write a verbose piece of nonsense in reply. Something that is the typical 300 words with no paragraphs using fantasy analogies. Something about "cattle cars", the "Eichmann Syndrome", and "institutionalized employees" perhaps.

#7 [11]

Penteller [3] wrote on December 04, 2012 at 5:12 pm

“Men are born ignorant, not

“Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by education.” - Bertrand Russell

Citizen1, Thank you, you are most kind.

Sid, I thank you sincerely, as you have validated all my points beyond a thousand pages of my own. And no thank you on your recommendation, I don’t think the cattle car trip is what I was looking for.

#8 [12]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on December 05, 2012 at 12:12 pm

"Cattle car trip"? If your

"Cattle car trip"? If your reference pertains to Nazi Germany, you are being delusional. Pen, accept some help.

#9 [13]

Penteller [3] wrote on December 02, 2012 at 1:12 am

Capitalism without failure is

Capitalism without failure is like religion without sin. But unfortunately when the fall comes the rich always make the poor pay for all their mistakes.

Sid,

“You were never my employer.” Excuse me? I believe the old expression was “public servant”, but apparently the new expression has become “public arrogance” because without “our” tax dollars, neither your pay nor your retirement would exist.

The last time I knew, anytime someone paid your salary, contributed to any kind of retirement benefit, while requiring you to conduct yourself by the rules established by them, with salaries negotiated through them – was your employer. Which is US.

“States cannot go bankrupt because they have the ability to raise taxes, and fees along with other revenues.” Don’t delude yourself, states can go bankrupt, it’s called “default” and the process drags the entire culture down with it. There reaches a point at which no amount of taxation will prevail, which is where the State of Illinois is rapidly approaching with a 100 billion dollar debt burden.

Yes you and others spent years and hardships getting your degree and we applaud you for that. For many others, they have faced lifetime hardships because they did not possess the abilities nor have the opportunities you had.

Untold millions of people have been used and abused by corporations owned by the one percenters. Who after sucking all they could from them, pulled the industry and moved it somewhere else for even more profit. And why? Because they could, especially when most had no collective abilities or geographic monopoly like Government employees have.

It is your arrogance of “entitlement” that you have expressed so well, which is the most disturbing to people like buz and myself. For it is we who have assumed all the risk all our lives, worked for a fraction of what you have made, while regularly threatened and experienced downgrade, unemployment, harassment and abuse, all to “ensure” your continued well being and growth. Meanwhile “we” (your employer) continue to decline rapidly.
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/11/30/study-american-households-hit-... [14]

Now that our work as the drone people has run its course, the bankers have set the hook into us all through a corrupt political construct, controlled by bankers who use conspiring lobbyists who write legislation that benefits the most powerful interests. A system that has become a house of cards now in collapse, with buz and myself unable to pay, as the floodwaters of the poverty level draws closer to us.

Yes you worked long hours and overtime to get through college, but have you done it all your life like many at our level do, just to make ends meet? Have you worked for most of your life without healthcare, spending much of your income on keeping a loved one alive? Not to mention people like myself who will probably never be able to retire because a former employer decided to commit fraud?

The holier than thou, me educated and therefore “entitled” attitude that you so easily expressed is at the very core of this debate. Because as we have had to compromise our lives for lower salaries and retirements due to the powers harvesting our toil to our detriment, so to shall you now feel what we have felt and dealt with all our lives.

The average income in my county is one of the lowest in the state yet there are Danville high school teachers making around 100K and will retire on what kind of income? A gap that only grows bigger with each passing year. It’s unsustainable, it’s gross and it’s perverse, so expect no sympathy from nearly anyone in the private sector for your position and be prepared for a lifestyle adjustment coming soon, due to a state gone bankrupt.

As one of the illiterate rednecks who never finished high school I can spell and pronounce “bourgeois”. And as one of the peasants carrying your load for several decades, we are here to tell you that your life will now change. Because we are tired, wore out and broke, but most all disgusted at our employee’s entitled attitude!

Welcome to our world Monsieur

#10 [15]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on December 03, 2012 at 2:12 pm

Pen; You appear to be the

Pen; You appear to be the voice of the common man. However, you do not represent the common man. The common man does not believe in conspiracy theories, right wing ideology, or theft based on envy. If you feel that I am "entitled"; your opinion is based on envy, and greed. I am entitled to my earned pension. The state constitution, and contract law upholds my entitlement. It was earned based on the conditions of employment. I do resent right wing simpletons howling that it should be stolen from me. It is always the people who did not take the opportunity to better themselves in life. The envious, greedy, and lazy citizens who hold the illusion that simply because they are state citizens like everyone else they are the Boss. What a delusional concept. Millions of citizens with differing opinions being the Boss over public employees. They would all want to cut in line because they are the Boss. They would all want unwarranted dispensation for avoiding policy that applies to all. It is a delusional concept.

You consider yourself a "peasant". You say that you have been "carrying my load". You indicate that "we" are tired, wore out, and broke; and are disgusted at "our" employee's entitled attitude. Who are "we", and "our"?

Sorry, Pen. Your being delusional. Based on my previous employment experience; I suggest that you see someone who can help you. Take advantage of the public services available.

#11 [16]

buzorro [17] wrote on December 05, 2012 at 5:12 pm

Penn, you asked me how many

Penn, you asked me how many of our critics were state employees?

Have you ever, in your entire life, ever been assoiated with 'right wing ideology' and, even more, labeled a 'howling right wing simpleton?'

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!!!!!!!!!! SS, you are a jewel...a case of 'arrested development?'

#12 [18]

Citizen1 [7] wrote on December 02, 2012 at 1:12 pm

Pen, you say you are

Pen, you say you are uneducated. You may lack some piece of paper, but you speak with more clarity and common sense than the majority who post on this site. Very well said. All I can add is that the arrogance of these people is growing old. As soon as homeowners have to pay more property tax so some teacher working nine months a year can retire at 80% with full ride health insurance, the tax payers will rise up, rakes adnd shovels in hand, to end the abuse from the "entitled". There is no more money.

#13 [19]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on December 03, 2012 at 2:12 pm

Clearance Sale!!! One Half

Clearance Sale!!! One Half Off on Rakes and Shovels!!

Go rake your leaves; and pay your taxes like the rest of us.

#14 [20]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on November 23, 2012 at 11:11 am

I worked for an agency with

I worked for an agency with 600 plus employees. The only people who were earning $69,000 plus were the supervisors, and administrators. The rest of us were below your cited "average". I had a college degree, and worked in a professional paygrade. Various averages are throw around depending on who is being interviewed, and who is writing the story. The local media in Champaign is a joke. The sensational headlines are always the top dogs with big pensions. The "average" salary of the of the "average" employee is most often quoted as $37,000 per year. Take that $37,000 as the average top four years on a 40 years of service employee, and multiply it by .0167%. The retirement amount for the 40 years of service comes out to be $24,716 per year. The employee would be eligible for Social Security Retirement based on paying into it while paying into their pension. If the employee were a university employee their retirement from their pension would be higher based on a higher percentage than .0167%; but they would not receive Social Security Retirement because they did pay into it. After 40 years of service, the pension is not the same as the salary of course.

You probably think that is too much; and the retired employee is not entitled to it. I don't know how you earn, or earned your money. You can do with it as you please. I plan to do with mine as I please also, without any thief ranting about taking the money I earned. Now; go on with your manufactured facts, distorted truths, and right wing mob rants.

#15 [21]

buzorro [17] wrote on November 23, 2012 at 9:11 pm

I'll accept 'your' figures

I'll accept 'your' figures with a grain of salt, but will continue to 'believe' the sources I provided below.

...While we don’t always agree with the policy recommendations of the Civic Committee (nor they with us), we have always respected their deep concern for our state’s well-being. ..

, the Institute remains focused on reforms designed to promote security for both retirees and taxpayers. As the Institute has long advocated, those reforms must include the four policy prescriptions also outlined by the Civic Committee:

Freezing the automatic cost-of-living adjustment
Capping pensionable salary
Increasing the normal retirement age
Implementing local pension accountability

In addition, the state must shift to defined-contribution plans for all future work...

http://www.illinoispolicy.org/blog/blog.asp?ArticleSource=5257

#16 [22]

Citizen1 [7] wrote on November 24, 2012 at 8:11 am

These ideas are reasonable

These ideas are reasonable and represent a possible solution to the problem. Union members who offer no solutions, call those who don't agree with every word they spout haters and refuse to give so much as a mm will end up like the Twinkie union who held that the truck driver couldn't unload the truck and the person who unloaded the truck couldn't stock the shelves and then required that cake worker couldn't handle bread ended up with no jobs. Reality is that company owners take the risk of investing in the company and demand reward. The workers risk nothing, work against the company and ended up with nothing. Illinois union workers should take note. The taxpayers paid what was required of them. They conintue to pay and pay and will pay some more. Enough. Turn them out. We can't afford them anymore. The union workers should get what they paid into the system. Period. All those under the age of 67 should get jobs. Maybe Jesse Jackson Jr. can pay them. I can't.

#17 [23]

rsp [24] wrote on November 25, 2012 at 2:11 pm

If you gave $100 to the state

If you gave $100 to the state to pay to Illinois Power for your electricity and instead the state bought copy paper with it. Do you think you can just not pay Illinois Power? Maybe they were just too greedy and it should be cut it half? And yes they are charging interest for it being late. They are ready to pull the meter, what do you want to do? Does it make a difference?

#18 [25]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on November 25, 2012 at 4:11 pm

I view the state's

I view the state's responsibility to pay the employer's portion of the state retirement pensions the same as payment due to a vendor. It is a debt owed. It cannot be simply cancelled, or reduced because it is owed to public employees. Any pension reform will still not reduce the debt owed. The state has contracted, legislated, and promised over, and over again to make the payments. They did not do it. The State of Illinois' legislators, and governors word, and honor is nothing but lies. No vendors, or bondholders will trust the State of Illinois to keep a contract if the state does not honor it's debts. In order to pay the pension system debts, bondholders debts, and vendors debts; the State of Illinois will have to control spending on pork barrel projects, and raise taxes. The relationship of raising money for campaigns, and favors for campaign donations (bribes) is corrupt. Pork barrel projects for campaign donations, and votes is corrupt also. If nothing else; the State of Illinois should sell off it's assets including buildings, parks, and assorted other holdings with the money from the sales going into the pension systems.

#19 [26]

Citizen1 [7] wrote on November 25, 2012 at 4:11 pm

What fool would pay the State

What fool would pay the State of Illinois instead of paying Illinois Power directly? Same people who never saved a dime for their own retirement? Illinois is run by people like Jesse Jackson Jr. - crooks. Take your complaints to them, the poor taxpayers have paid enough and can't afford to pay again. The State is broke and so are the taxpayers. Get a clue.

#20 [27]

rsp [24] wrote on November 26, 2012 at 10:11 pm

Are you ready to give up your

Are you ready to give up your social security? Do you know what an anology is? You paid into social security, and so did your employer. You retire and get your check. The Illinois pensions work the same way. You pay in your share and your employer pays theirs. When you retire you get your check. That's your savings.

What do you think happens when the employer doesn't pay it? In every case where the employer didn't pay it, even where Romney bought the company and bankrupted it and left the workers with nothing, the government has stepped in and given them something. Private pentions are guaranteed by the government. Government pensions are guaranteed by the taxpayers.

What are you suggesting should happen to those who can't afford to save outside of their pension? The taxpayers are not broke. They are angry. Finally. It's time to reform the system into a fair system.

#21 [28]

buzorro [17] wrote on November 27, 2012 at 4:11 pm

'...The Illinois pensions

'...The Illinois pensions work the same way. You pay in your share and your employer pays theirs....'

And 'their employer?'...Well, I guess it would be the Taxed Enough Already private citizen.

My pension will have no tax dollars involved.

#22 [29]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on November 28, 2012 at 6:11 pm

buzorro; I see you objected

buzorro; I see you objected to my reply, and "suggested removal". I have never done that. I have always felt that it indicates one's character when it is done.

First, those of us who chose to sacrifice four years by obtaining a college eduction did it to have a better life. I worked 40 hours per week on two part time jobs with a wife, and a child while earning my degree. My wife worked full time; and I took out student loans which I paid back within the specified five years following graduation. We chose to do that for a better life for our family. I was able to secure better employment based on my college degree. You chose your life just as I chose mine.

Second; you pay or paid taxes just like me. Our tax money is spent by the legislators, and governors we elect. You were never my employer. The State of Illinois was my employer. The "Taxed Enough Already private citizen" is not a public employee's employer. I heard that rant for over 40 plus years; and I hear it now. That claim is false.

Third; your pension is yours, and mine is mine. You earn yours; and I earned mine. I do not have the right to take yours away from you anymore than you have the right to take mine from me.

Fourth; I will explain it to you again. States cannot go bankrupt because they have the ability to raise taxes, and fees along with other revenues. The State of Illinois Constitution states that regarding pensions "no benefits shall be diminished". That was done because the State of Illinois as the employer skipped pension payments while the employees paid theirs. It was in the constitution because it guaranteed pension payments because the employer skipped pension payments. Contract law prevents cancelling the debt owed also. The state of Arizona tried to welch out of it's pensions; but the courts found in the employees, and retirees favor based on the same laws.

I have attempted to explain it to you again in a better manner. Go ahead, and "suggest removal" again if you want.

#23 [30]

buzorro [17] wrote on November 29, 2012 at 3:11 pm

buzorro; I see you objected

buzorro; I see you objected to my reply, and "suggested removal". I have never done that. I have always felt that it indicates one's character when it is done. SS

You've been 'misinformed,' SS. I have never done that and can't foresee any circumstamces that would cause me to do that. I'll repeat for those who might've read it before too fast the first time. I HAVE NEVER CLICKED ON THE 'SUGGEST REMOVAL" BUTTON!

SS, you say that as a taxpayer, I am not your employer, that the State is your employer. Is the State the government of the State, or the tax-paying people of the State?

Spin that...

#24 [31]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on November 29, 2012 at 8:11 pm

For over 40 years; every

For over 40 years; every illiterate redneck has used that line with public employees. Try telling it to a librarian, firefighter, social worker, correctional officer, or a law enforcement officer. Of course, your were not my employer. You pay taxes like I do. The tax payer pays taxes. The legislature, and the governor decides how to appropriately, or inappropriately, use the revenues. Money is provided to sectors of public employment such as the agencies. The directors of the agencies are the bosses who report to the executive which is the governor.

Your concept of each individual taxpayer being the boss of the state's public employees is absurd, and hilarious. Go tell a faculty member that your his boss. He will laugh his head off. Evidently, you did not take civics in school. Just pay your taxes on time; or one of your "employees" with foreclose on your house due to back taxes. Oh... also, tell the building service worker at the U. of I. Library to be on time because your his boss. Sorry, I have to stop ... I am laughing so hard that I can't type anymore....

#25 [32]

rsp [24] wrote on December 01, 2012 at 5:12 pm

Interesting article in the

Interesting article in the New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/us/how-local-taxpayers-bankroll-corpor... [33]

There's a link where you can look at how much each state has paid in incentives, comes to about $80 billion a year nationally. All with no proof of benefit.

#26 [34]

Citizen1 [7] wrote on November 27, 2012 at 6:11 am

Wake up. I've already been

Wake up. I've already been forced to give up part of my Social Security and I'll have to work longer than promised to get it. Then I'll pay more taxes on it than promised. You should have to do the same. State employee keep clinging to what they were promised and site Illinois law that says they are entitled. Illinois is broke. Taxpayers are broke. The well is dry. When your checks bounce maybe you'll figure it out. That day will not come soon enough. Put your elected officials in jail and fine them if you want. It will change nothing.

#27 [35]

rsp [24] wrote on November 27, 2012 at 1:11 pm

Every study that has been

Every study that has been done shows that the vast majority of people collect more in social security than they ever pay in.

#28 [36]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on November 27, 2012 at 9:11 am

There have been no cuts to

There have been no cuts to Social Security yet. There has been no change to Social Security yet. I probably will have to pay more taxes as will you. "You should have to do the same" is a phrase howled; but it has no reality since nothing has happened to you yet. Public employees do cite law based on contract law, and the State of Illinois Constitution regarding pensions. Finally, the State of Illinois is not broke. Quinn just gave tax breaks to entertainment producers to put on plays in Chicago (yesterday's news). The well is not dry. The money coming in is being spent by our elected officials on pork barrel projects that benefit them individually. Taxes will go up, the pension debt will be restructured; and my pension will continue. The whole thing is about who gets paid first. The bondholders of the state's debt want to be the first payee; but law requires that the employees, and retirees are the first payees. That is why you see Big Money paying for front groups, and right wing media to push for the abolishment of the pension debt. They depend on the greedy, envious, and ignorant citizens to get whipped up to hate public employees. Evidently, you bought into it years ago. They got their money's worth with you, and bizarro.

#29 [37]

buzorro [17] wrote on November 27, 2012 at 4:11 pm

'There have been no cuts to

'There have been no cuts to Social Security yet. There has been no change to Social Security yet...' -SS

The age that determines 100% benefits has changed.

'...the State of Illinois is not broke..' - SS

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Welcome to the Twilight Zone.

'...Taxes will go up...' - SS

Another 'Duh' moment.

'...a phrase howled...greedy, envious, and ignorant citizens...' - SS

Always striking a nerve, it's so easy.

Riiight! I should have gone to a college, partied for four years, gotten a liberal arts duh-gree, then settled into a high wage and benefit job with the State, so I could suckle at the teat of government.

#30 [38]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on November 25, 2012 at 10:11 am

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Sorry to burst your bubble. The state constitution, and contract law states that they will continue to receive their pensions regardless of whether it is "their" money which they paid, or the money that the state was legally to have paid. If "pension reform" is done on the current employees, it would be considered legal. However; the pensions earned to date by the current employees, and retirees will be paid. You can pay along with me. It is our debt incurred by our elected legislators.

I realize that people like you, and buzaro will not change your entrenched opinions. I really do not care if you do, or not. Your right wing mumbled up attitudes are slowly dying fortunately.

#31 [39]

buzorro [17] wrote on November 26, 2012 at 5:11 pm

Can the State's debt bubble

Can the State's debt bubble get bigger forever?

I didn't vote to support public employee unions. If you'll do some research you'll discover that collective bargaining by these unions was 'given' to them in exchange for their votes at election time. They were 'used.' now the taxpayer is being 'abused.' If you want to bring up 'morality,' we'll see how public support for these unions dwindles as the debt burden increases.

#32 [40]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on November 26, 2012 at 9:11 pm

The pension skipped payments

The pension skipped payments by the employer existed before the public employee unions formed. The pension problem existed before the '70's. Look it up for yourself. You will still deny it though. It is easier for you to blame unions, or public employees than to do any research. I was working for the state before there were unions. In 1968, employees were given a choice to stay on the existing pension plan, or one that was combined with Social Security. The new employees in 1969 were not given that option. They paid into the pension system, and paid into Social Security. The university state employees were not given any options. They were kept in the existing pension plan with no opportunity to pay into Social Security.

You do "some research" before you spout simplistic statements. By the way, you voted for politicians. They make the decisions after their elected. You have no say about public employee unions. Public employees are "taxpayers" also. The biggest problem in Illinois is the increasing number of uneducated, naive idiots who believe something they read, or is read to them; but never do any research on the whole issue.

Now; howl, rant, and rave about some other thing that you believe, but do not research.

#33 [41]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on November 23, 2012 at 10:11 pm

The Civic Committee, and the

The Civic Committee, and the Illinois Policy Institute are both front groups for the wealthest of corporate citizens. You can add the Chamber of Commerce with them. You are unbelievably guiliable, and naive to believe their promoting "security for both retirees and taxpayers". I really had some respect for your intellect, and honesty until you started quoting stuff like this. Your entrenched in your views whether you know them to be right, or wrong. There is no reason to expect intellectual honesty from you now.

#34 [42]

buzorro [17] wrote on November 24, 2012 at 8:11 pm

Cite some legitimate

Cite some legitimate non-biased sources to base your argument on, SS. Name-calling is immature and a poor way to represent your viewpoint.

On what basis are you arguing that the IPI is a front group for anyone? Is this a knee-jerk reaction or are you privy to some inside information unknown to most?

The IPI's mission statement: http://www.illinoispolicy.org/content/?section=456&section2=519&page=519... [43]

The Board of Directors: http://www.illinoispolicy.org/content/?section=456&section2=463&page=463 [44]

So the mission statement is a ruse? Prove it and I'll be convinced. Easy-peasy.

#35 [45]

Penteller [3] wrote on July 01, 2012 at 11:07 am

We’ve covered all this before

We’ve covered all this before but it needs to be said again in the context of this discussion.

Today’s health care has little to do with health, but is all about the gross profit of the pharmaceutical, medical services and insurance conglomerates that prey on the citizens of this country.

The most perfect example is the recent drug “shortage” that was all over the news earlier this year. The only drugs that were in short supply were the older (inexpensive) drugs used in the process of “curing” patients. No profit there in either the manufacture or market expansion of those drugs, so they were shorted. Of course the MEDIA once again hid this from the American public so as to not impact the stock portfolio of the 1%ers.

Nearly every medicinal treatment given to patients by doctors, is prescribed by a “protocol” eliminatory process, created and maintained by the pharmaceutical industry. Doctors keep to these “protocol’s”, because to stray from the accepted norm of prescribing specific drugs for specific symptom’s is to open the door to lawsuits by greedy patients and shunning of freebee Pharmaceutical perks.

This unholy alliance between drug pushers and Doctors, creates a downward spiral situation, wherein each new drug prescribed, creates new symptoms to be prescribed new drugs that escalates new medical issues that continues the downward spiral until the patient is dead.

One of the best examples of the Pharmaceutical’s “keepem drugged for life” plan is the Heart Stint procedure now widely used as an alternative means of heart treatment. Instead of a painful heart operation that can successfully last the rest of your life, a foreign object is put inside the body that requires a lifetime of expensive drug treatment, costing considerably more in the long run and causing greater body damage.

Doctors, ignorant of diet and nutrition for which they have no formal training, rarely if ever ask about diet, and concentrate solely on chemical testing to determine treatment. Test that never find early stages of illness, since the blood work has not changed enough to indicate problems, nor does it look for any one of the 10,000 type of virus’s and bacteria living in our bodies that may be out of balance.

The insurance companies that pay tens of millions to their executives and even more to their lawyers, profit from the sham of “coverage”. Coverage that cover only a portion of the population and costs a considerable amount of money to litigate, operate and administrate and that’s before the profit to shareholders. All assured by “denied” treatment’s. While never covering alternative treatments that may be beneficial.

But the greatest problem in today’s healthcare is the patient, patients who consider themselves “consumers” and respond well to the grotesque term “Consumer Healthcare”. Consumers who have been trained to believe that more is better so the person taking the most pills must be the winner!

And until this consumptive attitude changes and people begin thinking about their health differently and realize that less is more when it comes to medicine, the purveyors of MG (Medical Greed) will only grow richer as we grow poorer and sicker.

Making people pay out of pocket for their healthcare - is a wonderful way to begin making people think about their health. Now if we could only pierce the wall of ignorance that surrounds the illusion of Consumer Healthcare.

#36 [46]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on November 15, 2012 at 1:11 pm

Other than DLEmerick, and

Other than DLEmerick, and rsp; the rest of the comments are pure ignorance. The State of Illinois Constitution, and contract law prevents the theft of earned public employee pensions. States cannot declare bankrutpcy because they have the power to raise taxes, and fees for revenue. The employer did not make the payments; but the employees did make the payments. You can rant, and rave all you want but those are the facts. Maybe; you will get your way, and thousands of Illinois citizens will be homeless. The economy will take a jolt that will have a ripple effect. The State of Illinois will never have any credit, or lenders. Vendors will not do any business with the State of Illinois out of fear that the state will not honor any contracts.

Like I said, your comments are ignorant. They are not based on facts. They do not foresee the consequences of the theft.

Bob620, or whatever your handle; you will become old some day. When you are no longer able to work, I hope your savings is still in tact for you to live on. If not, it will be off to the big chimney for you based on your attitude.

Carry on with your conspiracy, police state, and hate discussions. What sad lives....

#37 [47]

sameeker [48] wrote on May 13, 2012 at 10:05 pm

Why not have the republicans

Why not have the republicans appoint death pannels to determine when someone is no longer productive. When they can't put profits in the CEOs pockets, just execute them.

#38 [49]

Local Yocal [50] wrote on May 12, 2012 at 10:05 am

Whether public unions will

Whether public unions will ever take a cut in benefits will be put to the political test in Wisconsin, as the recall vote will see if it's politically viable to oppose public unions. Wisconsin might not be the most "average" of states to measure this, but I don't see reform happening in "pay-to-play" Illinois.

Equally mystifying as the exhorbinant pensions and healthcare packages public unions have leveraged off the taxpayers, is this sense of privacy entitlement the public sector maintains. The unions want taxpayer money to pay their salaries and benefits, our appropriation laws to create a job for them, all in the name of public service; and yet, when it comes time for public accountability, they claim "confidentiality." Even foisting the phony argument, "How would you like it if your employer released your personnel record to the media?"

Since we paid for a union employee to generate a personnel record, it's our records. Open up, it's the taxpayers.

You have to wonder too, how can you seperate these privileged relationships without real campaign finance reform? Until the legislature declare radio, TV, and Newspaper political advertising to be Public Service Announcements; and therefore free of charge to any viable candidate on the ballot- this idea that a representative in this republic needs lots of money to be a representative in this republic and subsequently makes it possible for companies and unions to "buy" favorable legislation- there won't be an unfettered political body to make the hard decisions. The media should not be allowed to charge for political advertising and that should be made part of an FCC licensing requirement.

With that unthinkable idea now said, I expect this comment to be suggested for removal.

#39 [51]

buzorro [17] wrote on June 21, 2012 at 5:06 pm

Wisconsin...yes...so long

Wisconsin...yes...so long ago. The Repub governor was a scoundrel, and the Repub-controlled State legislators were tyrannical gangsters out to hurt the working man. Or so we were led to believe. Remember how the Wisconsin Dem legislators fled the state? How the hundreds of working men and women revolted by occupying their State Capitol building? How hundreds of Illinois teachers called in sick and drove north in support of their union brothers and sisters (of course they weren't really teachers on that day,...real teachers wouldn't abrogate their duty to teach children...they were public union activists)?

So where are all these 'activists' now when a Dem governor and Dem-controlled legislature acts to do the same thing here in Illinois?

Quinn signs bill requiring retirees to pay part of health insurance http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-quinn-signs-bill-requiring-retirees-to-pay-part-of-health-insurance-20120621,0,2875681.story

It's different when Dems do it?

#40 [52]

Citizen1 [7] wrote on May 10, 2012 at 11:05 am

Well said, Buz. Public

Well said, Buz. Public unions can not reasonably expect what the taxpayers who must pay for them don't have and can't expect. These unions can and must adjust expections or receive nothing at all. The taxpayers who already won't get what they were promised by Social Security demand no less.

#41 [53]

DLEmerick [54] wrote on July 14, 2012 at 12:07 am

A promise is a promise. It

A promise is a promise. It doesn't really matter that you declare later, as a matter of policy, we should not make such promises, as pensions.

We did. Said and done, deal signed.

So, will we welch in our deal, or not -- will we dishonor our own promises?

That's all that's at stake here -- dishonor or not.

Will we cheat on our promises or not -- as it is too late to ask whether we were wise to make such promises, at all. Elsewise, we'd be like justifying cheating on our spouses, just because we now find some reason to cheat on them.

A promise is a promise, that's all a pension is, too, just a promise to pay, tomorrow, rather than today. It happens every day, we all promise tio pay tomorrow. It's just the dead-beats and bankrupts who do not honor their promises. So, should Illinois become one of those, or should it man-up, and pay its promises?

That's the only question -- welch on debts, weasel out, or pay what we promised to pay?

#42 [55]

buzorro [17] wrote on November 14, 2012 at 4:11 pm

That's the only question --

That's the only question -- welch on debts, weasel out, or pay what we promised to pay?

_______________________________________________________________________

So it's a question of 'morality' to you? Welch, weasel out, cheat, dishonor, etc., etc., ad nauseum. Get real...it's strictly about the numbers. Get off your high-horse, open your eyes and check out this news item:

Civic Committee: Illinois pension system 'unfixable'

SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (AP) — A business group says the Illinois pension system is "unfixable" and that even current retirees' benefits will have to be cut to keep it from bankruptcy....

...keeping the state's five pension systems from collapsing will require drastic action.

That includes eliminating annual cost-of-living increases, capping the salaries that pensions are based on and more...

...current state employees and teachers will never see the benefits promised them...

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/politics-and-government/2012-11-14/civi... [56]

The gravy train is over...man up.

#43 [57]

rsp [24] wrote on November 14, 2012 at 6:11 pm

http://www.substancenews.net/

http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=2836 [58]

Read it carefully

#44 [59]

buzorro [17] wrote on November 16, 2012 at 12:11 am

I tried to but it isn't

I tried to but it isn't workable. Perhaps you could summarize.

#45 [60]

rsp [24] wrote on November 16, 2012 at 10:11 am

"Indeed, we are aware that [61]

"Indeed, we are aware that a challenge to a state’s constitution might take the form of a state’s exercise of “power as a sovereign to protect the health, safety, and welfare of its citizens” (Education Sector Policy Briefs…). In regards to the “diminishing or impairing” of a clause or contract that protects citizens’ rights, the United States Supreme Court has held “that the court must establish that impairment is reasonable and necessary to serve an important public purpose, such as ‘the remedying of a broad and general social or economic problem.’ To show that a change is necessary, the state must establish that no less drastic modification could have been implemented to accomplish the state’s goal; and that the state could not have achieved its public policy goal without modification” (Education Sector Policy Briefs…).

This particular option has seldom been brought to the test, and for good reasons. To declare that a state is in an “emergency state,” will no doubt ignite legal questions and litigation about the competency and ethical motivations of policy makers and whether they had truly exhausted every alternative available to them for resolving a state’s financial debts before challenging a constitutional contract."

This section identifies the grounds that could be used to try to take the pensions that are owed. In order to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the citizens. The US Supreme Court has ruled that it must be reasonable and necessary for them to do it. And they have to be able to show that nothing less drastic could have been done. The article goes on to explain how rewriting the tax code would resolve a lot of Illinois' problems, and how people like Tyrone Fahner’s Civic Committee of the Commercial Club of Chicago profit from scapegoating unions. Fahner has made millions off of the recession and by using loopholes built into the system for the rich. Our economy has changed. We need a complete rewrite of the tax code to resolve this.

#46 [62]

buzorro [17] wrote on November 18, 2012 at 3:11 am

So Fahner, and rich people

So Fahner, and rich people like him, have used unscrupulous means to legally profit from other's misery. Sounds like the typical scoundrel. Re-writing the tax code has been pointed to as a remedy for the annual federal defecits also for years, and although I've never heard anyone disagree, no action towards that goal is ever taken. I will assume the same for tax reform in Illinois. Seems those with power won't willingly give up that power, or even some of it. So it appears that there is a solution but it will remain a pipe dream as long as it must be approved by the powers that be.

Regarding the constitutional power to amend state-employee union contracts, I, personally, would judge our state to be in an 'emergency' situation. Closing prisons to save money that will result in further overcrowding of the remaining prisons, plus increasing the dangers to the guards sounds pretty scary. But that may be one of only many scary dangers to the safety of the public in order to fulfill that contractual pension promise to teachers. Cuts in State Highway Patrol...same thing. No more road and bridge improvements,...you get my drift.

Look, being an ex-active union member myself (but in the private sector), I hate the way corporations and bankers have been allowed to control this country, but it is what it is. And the way it stands now, those government-employee unions will eventually bankrupt the cities, counties, and states, because, although their wage and benefits packages continue to rise while the unions in the private sector are no more than window-dressing, the number of taxpayers are shrinking, their wages and benefits have remained stagnant for three decades. People are losing their homes, the careers they once enjoyed are gone overseas, never to return. Only 50% of college graduates are able to find employment in the fields of their studies, a lot of them move back in with their parents, or rent a house with four other people. This is reality.

So go ahead and point to re-writing the tax code, meanwhile there will be millions desperately seeking employment of any type to house and feed themselves and their families. I doubt if they ever even think about state-employee pensions.

#47 [63]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on November 18, 2012 at 9:11 am

What a twisted way to condone

What a twisted way to condone the theft of others money............ Your past comments have defined you. Putting a little sugar on this comment still will not get people to buy it. What is behind your animosity toward public employees, and their earned pensions?

#48 [64]

buzorro [17] wrote on November 18, 2012 at 10:11 am

Animousity? Care to give an

Animousity? Care to give an example? I'll be waiting...

My 'observations' are based on the numbers, and if you can't understand this point of view then that points to a 'disconnect' on your part. Let me ask you this, SS, who do you think should make the necessary sacrifices in order to maintain the status quo? Property owners? State workers in other departments? Those on fixed incomes?

Anyone besides SS notice any hostility or 'animousity' in this post?

'Copy and paste' any past comments I've made that express 'animousity' towards public employees and/or their earned pensions, please. We'd like to see the basis of your accusation.

I never argue, I'm well past that. Debate? Definitely.

#49 [65]

Sid Saltfork [5] wrote on November 18, 2012 at 5:11 pm

Well; read your first

Well; read your first comment, and second comment in this discussion. Your comments on other articles could be added; but are not necessary.

Retired public employees, and current employees pay property taxes also. You always exclude public employees as taxpayers, and those on fixed incomes. The pension problems existed before the public employee unions were formed. The pension problems were caused by the employer not paying the employer portion of the pension contribution. The public employees paid their portion with every paycheck. The State of Illinois Constitution states that no benefits shall be diminished. Contract law forbids the non-payment of the pensions. States cannot declare bankrutpcy due to their ability to raise taxes, and fees.

So yes; the debt will be paid by raising taxes, or ceasing the pork barrel spending. Sorry; but you, and I have to pay up. Spread your propaganda for theft elsewhere.

#50 [66]

buzorro [17] wrote on November 18, 2012 at 11:11 pm

Previously I was going to

Previously I was going to have my headstone inscribed: 'Nickle'd and dime'd to death by his kids.' I just changed that to : Taxed to death!

'Retired public employees, and current employees pay property taxes also.' - SS

What's your point? That's to be expected when their wage and benefit package is generally higher than ours in the private sector.