Tate: Even in victory, howling hard on my ears
Territory folks should stick together,
Territory folks should all be pals,
Cowboys dance with the farmer's daughters,
Farmers dance with ranchers' gals
CHAMPAIGN — The musical "Oklahoma" offers good but obviously unheeded advice. It's old-fashioned. In today's world, we just can't get along.
Illinois and Michigan State fought like demons to a 42-41 result Tuesday that set back basketball to World War II. I received a concussion just watching. Then the real battle began. Were the Illini deserving of this triumph against a Top 10 team? Should Illini Nation rejoice in winning ugly? Or was it simply not worthy?
One fan called for a dog collar on Meyers Leonard in order to give him an electric charge when he shoots from the perimeter. And, by the way, why didn't Tyler Griffey play? And why did Sam Maniscalco play so much? And does Brandon Paul practice his free throws?
To which I ask: What kind of people are we? Can we do anything other than complain?
Look around. Check your buddies and tell me whether Illini Nation has gone over the edge. It was bad enough that stalwart followers wanted Illinois to lose football games in order that Ron Zook be fired. Now, with Zook gone, there are those who can't enjoy a basketball victory for the similar reasons related to Bruce Weber.
We live in a world gone crazy. Check the campus of this great university. We forced out one university president (B. Joseph White) over an admissions scandal in which he had little or no involvement, and the new president has been here just long enough to receive a unanimous — emphasize unanimous — Senate sanction for "lack of leadership."
We labeled Chancellor Nancy Cantor the diversity queen on her way out the door, dumped Richard Herman at the height of the enrollment scandal, and now we wonder: How long will it take to put Phyllis Wise in the crosshairs?
Check Springfield. Best quip to come out of the Capitol was the idea that governors should start serving their jail time as soon as they're elected. If Pat Quinn did something right, nobody would acknowledge it.
Let me count the ways
That is the modus operandi of Ugly America. Each of us is right, and anyone who disagrees is wrong. And we hate them for it.
Our mistakes are colossal. We lost thousands of men/women and broke the bank in initiating a costly war to kill Saddam Hussein without adequate intelligence whether or not Iraq could deliver weapons of mass destruction.
We watch a daily duel for the Republican nomination in which the country's unsustainable entitlement issues are overlooked while Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich attempt to personally destroy each other. Romney's advertising expenditures in Florida were breathtaking, and I ask, "Would anyone actually base his vote on an ad?" And the answer is, to our shame, "Yes."
More people approve of porn than Congress, where the ratings were last noted at below 10 percent. Republicans have signed a binding and ridiculous pledge not to raise taxes, which kills any possibility of compromise on critical economic issues. It's a logjam leading straight to bankruptcy. And Barack Obama is so bent on wealth distribution that his policies limit the small businesses that make the country purr.
These facts are obvious even to a half-witted sports columnist.
And how are we doing in race relations? Whether it's Jesse Jackson, Charlie Rangel or Donna Brazile, their every comment is tinged by race-colored glasses. Locally, Champaign police must answer to the black community for each of the too-frequent arrests of black youths. And the UI athletic department still is reeling from the decision of two black trustees to vote "no" on football coach Tim Beckman's contract because Beckman wasn't black.
The only sane person I've run across lately is Al Nudo, who had the brains to pull out of politics before his head got bashed in by the kind of distortions that accompany every race.
Patience, please
On the basketball front, the basic fan problem stems from an entitlement mentality that, regardless of anything, the Illini deserve to be better than Michigan State, Ohio State, Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan and Purdue, not to mention Missouri and everyone else in basketball. It is our right as Illinoisans.
Most complaints originate with that belief. That's OK. It's good to set the bar high. But Michigan State, Ohio State, Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan and Purdue also set the bar high. They have no fewer resources, facilities and access to talent. They probably spend more for recruiting than the UI does.
Obviously, Tom Izzo's base is stronger because of his success. Thad Matta's background in Illinois, Indiana and Ohio gives him the same recruiting advantages that Bob Knight developed at Indiana. And remember, for all-out rivals, it is always open season in Chicago.
As to Weber's future, the sensible approach — there's a novel idea — is to show a little patience until the season is concluded and weigh the pertinent factors: (1) this season's record, (2) the nine-year audit, (3) returning talent, (4) the status of recruiting and (5) attendance and fan base. And don't forget finances. AD Mike Thomas already is straining the athletic budget with his football decision.
With Zook, the decision was obvious. Attendance and recruiting were in a tailspin, the multiyear performance was erratic and the Big Ten record was 2-6.
The jury is still out on Weber even as the fandom is splintering. He has been stuck in a 50-50 Big Ten mode since 2006, and it continues. It seems as though every game goes to the wire, not just for Illinois but for nearly everyone in the conference.
Suggestions that Weber can't coach are nonsense. More to the point, he hit a recruiting dead spot after 2005, was derailed by Eric Gordon and had bad luck with two special athletes, Jereme Richmond and Crandall Head, who might have been difference-makers.
As for recent games, it may be an oversimplification to say the team isn't hitting, but it's true. Except for the Ohio State game, decent shooters are missing too many open looks. And all this fuss about getting the ball deep to Leonard overlooks the facts that (1) he lacks a strong base for holding his ground inside and (2) his teammates are weak passers.
For now, a 9-9 Big Ten record should be good enough to get Illinois in the NCAA tournament. And if it's 9-9 — sure, it could go either way — would that be good enough for Thomas to give Weber another year?
And if there is no other use for the dog collar, can we put it around the necks of the crazies who complain about victories?
Loren Tate writes for The News-Gazette. He can be reached at ltate@news-gazette.com.
Top heavy
Illinois already has two wins against Top 10 teams this season, beating No. 5 Ohio State and No. 9 Michigan State at the Assembly Hall. In the last 25 seasons, the Illini have accomplished that feat only five times. The rundown:
1988-89 (5 wins)
No. 10 Missouri, 87-84
No. 6 Michigan, 96-84
No. 3 Indiana, 70-67
No. 8 Michigan, 89-73
No. 7 Syracuse, 89-86
— Michigan was ranked 10th when it beat Illinois in the teams’ third meeting.
2000-01 (4 WINS)
No. 6 Maryland, 90-80
No. 7 Seton Hall, 87-79
No. 7 Arizona, 81-73
No. 4 Michigan State, 77-66
— Illini lost to No. 5 Arizona in the Elite Eight
2004-05 (3 WINS)
No. 1 Wake Forest, 91-73
No. 9 Arizona, 90-89
No. 4 Louisville, 72-57
— Illini moved to No. 1 after beating Demon Deacons and stayed there until title-game loss to No. 2 North Carolina.
1989-90 (2 WINS)
No. 4 Missouri, 101-93
No. 9 Purdue, 90-78
— Lou Henson’s team could get to 42 points in a hurry, scoring 118 in a rout of Iowa.
1987-88 (2 WINS)
No. 7 Kansas, 81-75
No. 10 Michigan, 85-74
— Illini played six games against Top 10 teams in loaded Big Ten.
Loren,
Thanks for your insight and I agree the entiltilement mentality causes the deranged thought of the Fire Weber Now group. Most of them watch the games but don't understand what they are seeing. Your observation of Leonard's weak base for holding position inside coupled with our team's below average passing ability accurately explains why it's difficult to get the ball into the post, yet the Fire Weber Group believes it's Weber's failure to teach and enforce. This crowd doesn't want to understand, but rather enjoys the noise made by banging their spoons against their high chairs.
Loren paints an Ugly America in which each of us is right and anyone who disagrees with our opinion.is wrong. Hmmm, thanks Loren (= Ugly America) for providing us with an apt description of yourself ( = i am the Gospel when it comes to Illinois sports andy reader who dares disagree with arme is a fool, a heretic and a pagan). Your view of a post Dee .500 Big Ten for Coach Weber as being adequate for a program that tasted a National Championship game in 2005 icannot be questioned without you branding those with said opinion as crazy, stupid and yes, ugly.
A half-witted columnist? Based upon your recent "Liren Knows Best" columns, methinks that you need to add another half to the witted ...
Loren's article is pretty fair. Until the end.
So why do I still type? The stretch, while factually accurate, is Loren listing the top 10 wins compared to other successful Illini seasons.
Just leave it that we need to see the young talent play. Leave it that Coach Weber is now bringing in talent from Chicago. Leave it that while the rope could be short, let's give Coach Weber the amount that is left without wild fan negativity.
Instead all I remember now is how much more athletic and fluid many of those teams were. How the scores, as listed, are all over 70 and some much higher. How the Illini were nearly always a top 4 or 5 seed in the NCAA tournament. How they reached the second round very often during the Henson, Kruger, and Self years. The post Dee era has produced just one 5 seed, in 2009 when they lost a first round game.
Perhaps the most important stat for Coach Weber's future is the total number of empty A section seats during the MSU game. If that trend continues, it may not matter what happens on the court.
I agree with Loren. Entitlement is the outward expression of a childs demand for what it wants, with no clue about reality, or practicality. (Gotta love the "banging their spoons on the high-chair" quip by a fellow poster).
Pitting everyone against each other is a control program on the planet. It ain't pretty but few make the choice not to be a 'victim' or a 'victimizer'. Much better to step outside the polarity game and focus on what is in your own highest good.
Think about it: only 1 team out of 120-130 is a national champion. Everyone else is unhappy. Then even the fans of the championship team complain about what minute area was not perfect and how to change it. Are they really happy even as champs?
Patience is the correct choice. There is little the fan base can say during the season that will sway the final decision maker, AD Thomas. He has enough brainpower to assess and choose what to do about coaches.
Let the players make their best efforts to the end of the BB season and tourney. Then draw some conclusions and talk about it. Otherwise, it is just a game, just entertainment as we move thru life. I believe the Illini have some great games ahead of them this year. Enjoy. Go Illini!
Here we go again... supposedly those of us who think Bruce Weber isn't the right person for the Illinois job are just a bunch of entitled babies.
No, we just want Illinois basketball to perform to its 30-year level... the level beginning since Lou Henson was finally and permanently able to rescue this program from the abyss. Nobody is asking for a consistent top 5 program. That's not realistic (although we'd all love to have it).
The data is crystal clear. Since 1980-81, the only sustained run of Illini basketball that resembles this one is the time directly following NCAA probation in the 1990s (and I'll head off the objection at the pass: Since most Illini fans consider that a witchhunt, it only stands to reason that 1) the 1980s were legit and 2) that great run would likely have continued without that witchhunt).
The absolute plain and simple truth is that this program was humming until the majority of players recruited by Weber's predecessor left the program. We all know what happened in those years, but it's not as if Lou Henson, Lon Kruger and Bill Self didn't experience bad luck on the recruiting trail as well.
The proof (as of prior to the MSU game):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnNqocHz5mvtdEdydVItQ3A5UkN...
Since we have finally started to ramp up the quality of recruiting under Weber (Jerrance), let's wait see where this pretty darn good talent takes us. Remember - Deron was a 3 star recruit out of The Colony, TX. Luther was a 4 star. We have a bunch of 4 stars now and some are really turning the corner. Weber can coach. He just could not recruit.
The only time I have been really upset with coaching this year was at the end of regulation at Minnesota where Meyers should have been aware that if anyone drives the lane - he should block the shot and foul. Because even if they had made two free throws - game over and we win. Horrible.
Interestingly - This season reminds me a bit of the Deron, Dee, and Luther's, sophomore season where we were really struggling with the motion offense but then "got-it" and won the Big Ten with the win over Wisconsin. And we all know what happened the next year.
Let's not disrupt what is moving in the right direction by firing Weber. I say he gets two more years to get to the Elite 8 or a Big Ten C'ship.
He was basically saying that Knight knew that they would be facing a disiplined, gritty team that would execute and fight hard. A coach that would develop some situational plays and could draw it up on a timeout. He may have been using it as a motivational tool for his Indiana team so they would be ready for a hard game. The context never seemed to that he liked Henson, just that he produced a good product and Knight respected that.
loren
i agree with you 100%. bruce also ran into some really bad luck with jamar smith. his outside shooting would have really helped take the pressure off the inside guys. the jamar saga hurt the illini for 2+ years.
i think weber is a fine coach. one of the better defensive coaches around. that said, i think the offense clearly needs help. listening to the dave downey interview, i could not help but nod my head. make good, accurate, quick passes to your teammates where they can handle it and get off shots they can make. before rolling your eyes, i would like to see more hi-low mixed in ala lon kruger's all senior starter team (one of turpin's favorites). they did not just use it to toss to the high post and try to dump it down low. they used it as a fulcrum to quickly pass it down low or kick back to the original passer or swing it to the wings or to a slasher. quick in/out/around passing. not a lot of dribbling.
this does not suggest you junk the motion offense. just mix it in.
thanks for an insightful article.
ed horton champaign
Two things.
One, every major basketball program has players leave early, drop out, get hurt, etc. Only at Illinois does the coach get the benefit of the doubt for what could have been. By that logic, Weber won the national championship in 2005. Enough with that argument, please!
Two, Weber's offense makes his defense look better. The offense eats up so much clock per possession, it shortens the game. His defense is nothing special.
Guys, guys, let's remember something: Old Man Tate is particularly sensitive to the issue of getting fired because it's well past the time he was put ot pasture.
It means nothing to Old Man Tate to call for patience over Weber after 6 years of mediocrity. After call, Tate's been a mediocre sportswriter for his entire career.
Loren, Illinois is entitled to have a coach with a clue on how to assemble a roster. Asking for patience during year 9 isn't going to fly. Gene Keady has to be rolling on the floor at the thought Bruce Weber still coaching here. Just burns my arse thinking about him still getting the upper hand on the Illinois program.
You can keep up your Weber shilling as long as you want, but in about a month and a half, I expect to be reading your "It was time for Weber to go" article. In the meantime, keep fighting the good fight, Bruce will be proud.
I know this makes post #2 on this thread for me, but a couple other thoughts:
Loren, give us some real information a writer in your position should be able to uncover. You say the athletic department budget is strained because of the Zook decision. How much? Too much to make a change for Weber? If so, put it in a column. There is no point anyone arguing the coach should be relieved of duty if money is not available to pull that trigger.
But typing a column with line after line poking at politics and "put a shock collar on Leonard" Illini fans makes it easy. People will read and people will comment. What is the alternative? It's apathy. Less discussion of Illini basketball and fewer bottoms in the seats. I'm sure Mike Thomas doesn't want to see that.
Absolutely spot on. I can't imagine there is a more negative fan base in the nation than ours. I haven't done any checking on other teams boards but I highly doubt there is nearly as much negativity as there is on here or other sites. I've gone to all but a handful of football games and plenty of basketball games the last 5 years or so and there always seems to be an enormous amount of negativity and borderline hatred around me. People want to sit on there hands the entire game and if you stand up the people behind you holler at you to sit down. I just decided finally to start yelling back, if I paid the money for my damn seat I have every right to stand up the entire game if I so choose, the same right you have to sit down the entire game. I was there for the Michigan St game Tuesday and the crowd just doesn't seem to care unless we are playing poorly, then everyone begins the booing and bitching at Weber and the players. The guy sitting next to me just cussed the players the entire game and not once said anything remotely positive, but there he was wearing an orange Illinois shirt. Without looking at him you would swear he was a Michigan St fan. I was pretty close to saying "why are you even here if you hate this team so much?", but I've been through it before and realized there just isn't much point. If you dislike Weber, fine, that's your right to believe he actually "can't coach", despite the numerous basketball coaches and experts that say he is probably one of the best coaches in the nation. And if Illinois fans dislike him because of how much yelling he does, watch a Duke, Michigan State, Wisconsin, or Kentucky game and tell me Weber is any worse than their coach. Self isn't coming back, quit dwelling on it. But what exactly do you get out of shouting insults at the players? Believe it or not, but I think they actually are trying to win these games. Just because Meyers seems to gravitate towards the perimeter sometimes doesn't mean he doesn't want to win and it doesn't happen every single offensive possession like some fans believe. And I swear the next time I'm at a game and the person sitting next to me is personally attacking Maniscalco I will probably be escorted out of the Hall by security. Enough is enough, if you don't like the team, don't watch the games. Wait till Weber is gone and then come back to a new coach that you can't stand either (sorta like what happened with Zook-Beckman).... like any real fan would do. I hope this team and coach Weber realize there are alot of people out here that actually support them and want to see success and aren't calling for heads after every loss.
I don't get this Tate and righteous posters attacking other fans. They have as much right to their opinions as anyone else. They also have a right to be frustrated and disappointed in the "product" that Thomas and Weber put on the court. College basketball is a product being big business and success is measured as much or more by the number of paying fans as wins and losses (although the two are highly correlated). Klee has written that "There were (at least) 4,000-5,000 empty seats combined for the Ohio State and Michigan State games - the marquee games on the schedule. " If the top 2 home games of the basketball season at a basketball school have that many empty seats, it is obvious something is wrong in Illini Nation. Fans first express their dissatisfaction with their comments vocally and in writing, then next with their pocketbooks. If a coach can't fill the stands, it doesn't matter what a great guy they are as a person or how much basketball smarts they have or how much they are respected by their peers. Once fan apathy has set in after being dissatisfied and thoroughly frustrated year after year with mediocre success. As Paul Klee aptly puts it "I introduced the .500 Big Ten record A.D. (After Dee) a few years ago. It's no secret Illini basketball is slumping after what amounts to the golden era. And a 42-41 home win against Michigan State doesn't change that. More than one diehard fan told me after the game it felt like a loss." If you can't satisfy enough fans to fill the stands and watch the games on TV (those fans count too - advertisers pay based on audience), then Mike Thomas (as CEO) may have to change the coaching to attract fans to fill the stands again if he doesn't have confidence Weber will ressurect the team ASAP.
You make far too many assumptions and then due to intolerance of others resort spewing hate and name calling. I would not assume that all of the people in attendance are Illini students or alumni or genuinely loyal Illinois fans. They aren't. Many in the audience go to games strictly for entertainment or milder Illinois fans than you are. Who are you to judge if they deserve to be in attendance or should be admitted or if their behavior is acceptable? Once you get done removing all the people who aren't the exact same kind of fan that you are, there won't be enough fans left in the building to pay expenses. College basketball and football are a legitimate business and are treated as such by the Athletic Department. It is a business whether the players are still students or not and whether they are "only" 18-22 years old. Many if not most of the paying customers in attendance at the games are not die-hard, dyed in the wool fans like you are and are probably more tolerant and less uncivil as well. I get tired of reading personal attack after personal attack on here, can't everyone just get along?
Swearing, cursing or foul language... doesn't make you any smarter just because you call the same thing three different names. What makes this website unsavory is the people that come on here and post negative, hate-fueled messages about the University Of Illinois' players and coaches. You all are tough enough to throw around hatred and insults and call for firings due to your personal disliking of certain individuals but when someone bites back you curl up like a coward and cry foul.
Please point out where I have using swearing, cursing or foul language in any comment and I will stand corrected. Didn't think so. It's only you that is acting vile and ignorant. Everyone has the right to their opinion even if that opinion is that they prefer to see the coach replaced. What you see as a negative, others see as a positive, i.e. getting a new coach that plays a much more entertaining and successful brand of basketball. It's only a job not a religion.
What? You said those exact words in your previous comment so I don't know if you're having a hard time comprehending my post or you're just an idiot... nevermind I know the answer to that... and saying "didn't think so" only makes you sound like even more of an idiot. ReadtheDI, you by far, are the biggest idiot that posts on this site so I'm not going to bother with your ridiculous bs anymore. You are once again proving my point that you little cowards love to dish out personal attacks, but you can't take a little heat coming right back at you. Get me kicked off of here and I'll just make a new user name and say the same things sooo there's really not much you can do about it. But my best guess says that whoever runs this site probably has no problem with my posts since you all repeatedly attack Tate, Asmussen, and Klee and their articles, character, and intellect; and as we all know by my deleted posts, it's just plain mean to call people out and call them names.
Whoever you are, it is most obvious you never attended U of I. You never mastered reading comprehension. I asked you if you could find any instance of swearing, cursing or foul language in any of my posts or comments. Obviously you can't because I haven't. Only intolerant, misguided righteous and crude haters like you use that kind of language. Even the News-Gazette won't tolerate you crudeness and deletes your posts. Instead of attacking other posters, why don't you go to church instead and ask God for forgiveness for your sins.
Hahaha here's the thing, I never said that you swore or cursed on here so I don't know why you are asking me to find an instance in which you did. I could care less if you have or haven't, it in no way effects the dispicable language that I use. I'm glad that you have such a problem with my language but you're completely comfortable calling me those hurtful names. Just for fun, next post try throwing in a few more adjectives before "haters like (me)" If the worst of my sins are from using such tasteless language on here, color me content. Like previously said, you sir, are an idiot. And it is most obvious. Now, I must find my reading comprehension books from school and study.
Good post. There are plenty of people who would pay good money -even in this economy- to watch those games... My experience at the games though is most people are very supportive, and the foul moods arise mainly towards the foul-mouthed anti-Illini "fans"... fans start to get tense because they WANT the team to do well so the anti-Illini fans will shut up, and when the Illini don't look good, the pro-Illini fans get frustrated... at both their team and the anti-Illini fans. It's fascinating, really.
Tate had good commentary on the status of the culture, as well. It boggles my mind that in 2012, people still vote and think according to skin color and nothing else.
Hey there UofFiLSue....your state your right to stand not lettingme see ends at the end of my fist I believe. Although I would never do that, I think your childish banter of the right to stand is humerous. So humerous that I called the U of I today and they told me that they will enforce people blocking the view of others..so , so much for your tough talk John Wayne.
The end of your fist, huh? And I'm the one talking tough and using childish banter? ... I stand by my right to stand and I am thrilled that you wasted your time today by calling just to find out what everyone already knows. But hey stud, I stand up ALOT at games, people behind do complain, and I've never once been asked by Assembly Hall or Memorial Stadium security to sit down. I'm not convinced that you, PeterE, and ReadtheDI are not the same person.
"I you don't ike the team, don't watch the games."
You know, just like the old intolerant saying: love it or leave it. Only people who love the team are entitled to watch games and be fans. Just keep drinking the conservative Moses Saint Tate Kool-Aid.
Maybe we could have Tate Thought Police at all turnstiles and demand that fans prove they love the team or be denied admission.
I'm not a big fan of Doug Gottlieb personally, but I do think as an analyst he is more willing to express an honest view than most others at espn. When speaking about Illinois' chances of making the tourney after the MSU win, he said some very interesting things. The first being that he thought Illinois has well overperformed this season and at 4-5 in their final 9 games they should make the tourney, something extremely in doubt before the season started. He said their freshmen have greatly improved since the season started and were Meyers Leonard to come back next year (which he likely won't) with the core of quality hard-playing youngsters and the leadership of upperclassmen Paul, Richardson, and Leonard, he believed the Illini will be a Final Four contender next year.
He also said this though when asked about what the feel is from the fanbase about the close wins and Weber, and Gottlieb said that he believes the fanbase has crossed over to wanting Weber out and have put that ahead of supporting the team and that theere is a large amount of frustration even after and during wins. He also cautioned that if Illinois fans do force Weber out, they most likely would not like what they wind up getting in return.
This was a national analyst on national television, saying the majority of the Illinois fanbase does not support their team. Sure the fanbase can reply to that "Are we not allowed to show our displeasure? Why are we being lectured for not liking the direction of the team?" but that doesn't change what the national audience perceives or what even recruits perceive.
Can you imagine being a very talented high school kid in Chicago trying to decide between Illinois and another school like Duke or Kansas (hint hint) and hearing on television and from friends that Illinois fans don't support their team? Why would they attend Illinois? You go to a school you feel comfortable at. Where the fans will cheer for you even when you're having a tough day.
I know many people on here like to believe that Weber is the cause of all problems with the team. But this season, to be honest, I've felt our own fanbase is causing a hell of a lot more harm to the future of the team. And the sad part is, the nation is beginning to believe that too. And once that gets established as fact, it's going to be extremely hard to once again change perception.
Interesting article, and one that while many on hear will believe is only Tate's opinion, is beginning to become National opinion. I learned a long time agao, you are only as good as your name. If you damage your name, others will only view you as damaged.
I don't believe the Illinois fanbase is truthfully different than those at Duke or Kansas or MSU. If Duke, Kansas, MSU had a mere .500 record in their conference over the past 5-6 years, missed NCAA tourny or went to NIT, their fans would be reacting similarly to Illini Nation. High expectations for Illini fans is just as warranted as those at other basketball schools. Illini fans have a right to expect that the string of successful seasons enjoyed in late 1990s and early 2000s continue. These last six years have genuinely been very hard on the Illinois fanbase and the consequence is very vocal, dissatisfied and expressive fans and worse yet apathy or indifference resulting in empty seats and less viewers on TV.
I don't disagree with you from a fundamental standpoint, though I would point out that when Kentucky suffered near the end of the Tubby Smith era and during the Gillespie era and the fans were irate and wanting coaching changes, they were able to go about vocally abusing their coach while still supporting and cheering on the team. I know when Kansas wanted Roy Williams out near the end of his tenure there, the fans were able to do the same thing.
Personally, I can't say I'm not dissatisfied with how we performed the last several years (last year especially. With the experience and talent we had, I was one of the idiots who predicted we'd be an Elite 8 team and that being relegated to the NIT the year before and losing it would actually serve as motivation and be a good thing). That said, from what I've seen on television at Assembly Hall and from what I witnessed at the one game I went to see them in person this year (I live in Florida now so it's a lot harder to go), I just don't think the fans who are upset and vocal about it are going about it the right way. At the game I went to (Nebraska), the fans were heckling our players and screaming obscenities at Weber in the first three minutes of the game when we had the lead. As a fan since I was a kid and an alum, I personally was disgusted by that. Assembly Hall has been a lot quieter this year as well. And perhaps a good amount of that is frustration and the team playing some of the least exciting basketball we've seen in years, but in the past 20-25 years, I haven't witnessed anything like what's going on in Champaign. It does seem to me that a good number of fans smell the blood in the water and have just gone into a predatory frenzy trying to rip apart anything and everything associated with the team.
I believe fans certainly have a right to complain and be vocal, especially if they don't like the direction of the team, I just don't think they're handling it "properly" (I know there's no proper manner when voicing complaints, but there are better ways that will at least shield the players and not put as negative a light on the fans), and I am very concerned based on now this becoming bigger news on a national level that the fans themselves cound unwittingly turn these "failures" into somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy, scaring recruits away and changing national perception of the team. I'm certainly not saying people shouldn't speak their mind with this team or not criticize it, just that we have to stop heckling our players or being hesitant to support them. I realize that's not an easy request when there's a frustrated fanbase, but you can visibly and audibly tell the difference in the fanbase this year, and in no way a positive manner.
What are these better ways you allude to but won't specifiy? You say fans are entitled to opinions as long as they don't speak them, basically.Maybe you share the Romney view that important topics facing the nation ought to be discussed in quiet rooms by a few people rather than publicly. Good luck with that. Suppressing people's opinions -- Stalin was good at that.
I thought I stated it pretty clearly. I think a fanbase crosses the line when they start booing and heckling their own players. So far this season, what I've seen and heard at Assembly Hall has been disappoining. The best way in my opinion to show displeasure in a coach is sending letters to the AD or calling in and cheer hard and support the players during the game. But to instead heckle 18-21 year olds? I'm sorry, I can't get behind that or agree with it.
Spot on Mr.Tate....... I have to say even your political commentary was very insightful and I pretty much have to agree with.
To the haters - the point was more about enjoying the win than it was about defending Weber which I do not think he even did. But of course you read everything with your blinders already firmly installed.
UGH!!!! I didn't have to read far at all to see it's Moses Saint Tate again at his worst--fans have no right to have opinions and even less of a right to express them. We are apparently all traitors in his eyes and should go live in Cuba since we seem to also be communists and un-American.
This guy is an intolerant and mean old conservative who hate fans. Absolutely has hated them for decades. Like all true believer conservatives, God has given him divine right to always be right and anyone who disagrees is a traitor.
Get out the stopwatch! The Sleepy Gazoo surrogates will be here soon to shout us down!
Let's be realistic here. I don't care how many coaches (in the fraternity where almost no one says a bad word about another coach) or announcers like Dakich keep saying that Weber is a good coach, the reality is that our record the last 5 - 6 years disproves those statements.
Coaching includes recruiting, designing plays, getting the most out of the talent you have, etc. I cannot understand how anyone can look at the totality of the job and say that Weber has done a good job.
Can he turn this season around? There is certainly enough time. However, I think the fans are getting tired of watching 50 point games...and one absolutely horrible 42 point game. They are also sick of watching Weber yell at the players and having the player look to Weber while the offensive player on the other team goes by our guy for an easy basket.
Nobody wants the guy fired in the middle of the season, but I believe that most fans know that this program has slipped into mediocrity with Bruce Weber at the top....and that is a long way down from where it was when he got here.
Moses Saint Tate's inaccurate perceptions of politics do not belong in a sports column -- but like all lockstep true believers, he can't stay connected to reality. His claim that Obama wants to harm small businesses and is engaged in wealth distribution is not only a lie, but laughable -- but remember, this comes from Moses Tate, a small-minded legend in his own mind.
Obama and others want to halt the complete transfer of wealth by Republicans to the already wealthiest 1 percent. Most small businesses come nowhere close to qualifying for that level of wealth. His heroes, the Romneys of the world, want to enact action that would cut taxes on the rich even more and shift even more tax burden on to middle class and poor people. And don't toss that tired and false GOP talking point in here: the people the GOP likes to claim are somehow dodging axes actually don't make enough to pay taxes. It';s just one of the many GOP lies they keep repeating in the hope someone will believe it and join them in their bubbles away from facts and reality.
It's the wealthy who keep dodging taxes, who keep avoiding paying their fair share -- just look at Romney.
Let the carnage begin! I can hear that shouting down strategy already! The Sleepy Gazoo surrogates who hate democracy and really hate fairness and tolerance are rushing madly toward this board like those funny little machines in The Matrix.
Webber can coach? Seriously? Having a theoretical knowledge of basketball is not the same thing as being a good coach. Gametime is when you PROVE you are a good coach. A guy who admittingly spends 80% of practice time on one of the most basic concepts in basketball (man-to-man defense) and wonders why we suck at other aspects of the game? Most teams seem to over-emphasize defense when you got no playmakers on offense. Everything about Webbers strategies is geared towards turning the game into a rugby scrum, playing not to lose (instead of to win), and clogging up any offense by anyone, unless we catch magic in a bottle and nail 20 from 3 point land. A coach who is seemingly outcoached in the majority of games as a tactician? He is supposed to be one of the leading experts on the motion offense, yet I cant remember going through multiple teams that never seemed to grasp the offense and looked completely stagnant and lost from 1980 to 2006 (i am giving 2003-2004 a pass since that was the first year Webber implemented it). If so, we need to find an offensive system that isnt Triganometry on the court to the kids who are supposed to be running it.
As "A-lion-eye" stated about Zook being a mentor/life coach to his players, "strangely, Zook was good at everything but coaching football". We might be staring at something similar again in regards to basketball.
Illinois has needed extreme circumstances to win their past two games, think about it...
Against OSU Illinois had the most efficient night from an offensive player in CBB in the past 15 years and arguably ever(Well Bill Waltopn would argue against that). This all came from Illinois' least efficient offensive player. In this same game Illinois needed a desperate heave with a hand directly in Paul's face with 40 seconds left to basically seal the game. A very unlikely shot.
Against MSU, their best player and facilitator of their offense played 10 minutes and made one FG due to foul trouble and an injury. In this same game they shot 24% from the field, committed 16 turnovers, had 4 assists and shot 5 less FTs than Illinois. If you would have told me that going in I would have told you Illinois would win by 25. Nope they squeeked out a 2 point victory and their lowest point total in a win in 65 years.
My point is while we lost three in a row, some things just didn't break our way but they weren't extreme. In our last two wins extreme cicumstances have meant close victories. You can hang you hat on the hope that extreme circumstances will continue to happen while I see an anemic offense that will continue to struggle to find ways to win against every opponent they play from here on out. You can tell me how great the coach is but what I really see is a 21-14 coach who is handed 10 wins a year on schedule alone. You hitch your wagon to 11-14 in contested games, I'll beat the drum for a replacement.
Loren , Loren,,,I have said all along, it is not how we win, if we win, but how stupid we go about it,,so stupid that a coach the level of Weborn goes and proclaims ahead of time he never plays zone. Stubborn is as Stubborn gets and fact is fact. Look, you said it, since 05 yes, Weborn hit a wall. So, it will take extra good coaching to accomplish our goals. This is where he fails. Time after time the same offense. Now, this year the new theme is " discover who you really have on the bench" which is part way done with Bertrands coming out and the still to come the story "Henry is here finally". Most of us armchair coaches have already figrued out what Weborn takes years to discover. That Loren, is our reason we are upset with Weborn.
Firing Weber gets you nowhere unless you hire someone better. Just saying 'we deserve a better record' doesnt cut it, you actually must have a plan of action to hire someone who can *achieve* that better record. And right now I have little confidence the AD would do that, even if Weber deserved to be fired, which he doesnt IMO. UI simply doesnt have the money to hire a top coach, and in fact just hiring someone like Weber would cost more than we are paying Weber due to the escalation in coaches salaries. I mean, we replaced Zook with a guy that no one would classify as an 'elite' coach and yet we had to pay him almost as much as we paid Zook who had come here from the NFL and Florida.
Sure, we might hire a coach that brings more offense, but more likely than not we would just suffer on the defensive end, where Weber is one of the best in the nation. And there are no guarantees no matter who you hire. Brad Stevens was the hottest name in coach and probably wouldnt even take the job, but he went from the final four to 12-11 this year in the mighty ... Horizon league?! Yikes. That kind of performance at UI would have the same people who want to fire Weber wanting to fire him too.
Besides, some of the same people who want Weber fired were vocally complaining about firing Zook, and now that Zook is gone, they are already criticizing his replacement and he hasnt even coached a game yet. Go figure. I bet we would fire Weber, go through the transition lull, and find out we are no better off and quite possibly worse off. But hey, the complainers would still get to complain, they would just have a new target...
When Mike Thomas decides to replace Bruce Weber, his only option isn't to try to get a better, more proven and successful coach than Weber. Most likely Thomas will instead get an up and coming coach that can become the next Izzo or Coach K. Possibly from mid-major ranks or else an assistant on a current high major team. Better coaches than Weber do exist. Bruce is NOT the only option and more importantly not ther best option Illinois has for drastic improvement. Do your homework MT and UI doesn't have to spend anywhere near $2M to get a coach who will do better than Weber, produce a more exciting product and fill the stands.
LOL, right, well I guess if all we need to do is go out and find 'next Izzo or coach K', for much less than $2M/yr, then its sort of a no-brainer. Except for the minor detail that for every 'next Izzo or coach K' there are 20 other guys who never achieve anything near that, and that every other school hiring a new coach is looking for the exact same type of guy. Why is it so easy for MT to do that 'if he does his homework' when dozens of other schools are trying to do the same thing???? Jeesh.
You make it sound like its so easy to find a better coach, and that 'drastic improvement' is essentially a sure thing. Give me a break. Its as least as likely that we end up with someone worse. I mean, you are talking about firing the coach that took us to the NC game in favor of a new hire with no remotely similar track record. Get real.
Hey, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Never said it was easy but that's Thomas's job to research coaches ad infinitum and explore all his many contacts in the coaching world to know who the special and best talents are. I'll bet that Mike Thomas already has a short list of replacements in mind. Most Illini fans would be enthusiastically happy to get someone like a young Izzo or Coack K in here (perhaps a Brad Stevens or Shaka Khan). Brad Stevens got a mid-major to the NCAA championship game TWICE and without having top recruits either. That trumps what Bruce Weber did once with Bill Self's recruits in my opinion. In the past six years with his own recruits, Weber has barely managed a .500 record in conference. Illinois fans understandably want to return to the glory of the late '90s and early part of last decade when Illinois was in the thick of Big Ten title contention and had somewhat deep runs in the NCAA tournament. After early success, for last 6 years Bruce Weber has gotten Illinois mired in mediocrity. So yeah, it's worth the risk to give another coach a shot at doing better. Other teams are able to find great coaches. Illinois did with Self, MSU with Izzo, OSU with Matta, etc. Thomas will deliver the basketball equivalent of Tim Beckman : ) like maybe Brad or Shaka or someone else Milke already has up his sleeve.
You say 'other teams are able to find great coaches'. Who, exactly? And if they are so great why are we always talking about Izzo and Coach K? You make it sound like every AD out there is making awesome hires except UI.. when the fact is that there are many hires every year and few of them are 'great'. Look how many coaches have been hired in the B10 since Weber and only Matta could be considered 'great'. Most of them arent even 'good', not in the sense of what you demand from a coach.
And by the way, comparing Brad Stevens to Beckman is a joke. Brad Stevens has been to final fours and last time I checked Beckman didnt exactly coach Toledo to the BCS. And besides, UI probably doesnt even have the resources it would take to hire Stevens, it sounds like they are struggling with the numbers after letting Zook go and hiring Beckman.
Anyway, lots of programs have made basketball hires and they fail more often than they succeed. It is beyond me what you think MT knows that he can magically select the next Izzo or coach K when so many other ADs (many of them more highly regarded than MT and/or who can offer more money) fail to do so, year in and year out.
You people wanting to fire Weber are living in a fantasy world in terms of the $ required to get a top coach, and the strong downside risk that the new hire might not work out.
I remember that. Guenther had considered Mark Few, Tom Crean and Thad Matta for the job at Illinois. Few wanted to remain in Washington, Crean made his usual denial of interest but Illinois was just not offering enough and Matta didn't even receive an offer with the kind of money Self was getting. Guenther thought Matta was too mercenary. LOL Too Funny! Now look, Matta is still entrenched at OSU, successful and unlikely to go anywhere, while Guenther is gone having left Illinois with three mediocre coaches needing to be replaced. Zook is finally gone and Bruce Weber and Jolette Law are likely soon to follow. Lazy coward Guenther left it all up to his successor Mike Thomas to clean house, do all the legwork to find and be able to pay for three top new coaches including all the major sports. Thomas will definitely be earning his money his first year in office.
when Matta's name came up in 2003 there was virtually no fan interest in him.I mean, NONE. I followed these forums very closely and remember the discussion, and Matta was one of the names in which there was no interest (Turgeon was another). There was enthusiasm for a number of coaches, especially Majerus, but not Matta. Its really easy to go back with 9 years hindsight and identify a better hire. But lets dont pretend the fans were begging for Matta and RG turned to Weber. In fact Weber had pretty decent support back in '03, not as much as Majerus, but far more than Matta because no one was picking him as their choice.
Your memory isn't all that very good. I remember Matta (from Xavier) was highly thought of and easily preferred over Weber by knowing fans and analysts. When OSU hired him instead it was considered a coup for them. Thad was one of the best up and coming coaches around.
If you think the Trustees raised a fuss over Beckman as Zook's replacement, just imagine what would happen if they had to vote on a replacement for Weber. I said in an earlier comment that the University will be compelled... both from within and without... to choose an African-American candidate to replace Weber.
Well that reduces the pool to a minute portion of excellent coaches. All of whom would drop whatever they were doing to come to the UofI to molify the "assperations" of these two clowns. I assume these two geniuses would never allow him to be fired if he sucks as a coach or molests children either? Who cares what these two racist jerkoffs think. They are only two votes and if they keep going with their racist crap they will soon be out the door.
More Like This
Most Commented
-
Wed, 3:13 pm
-
Thu, 12:42 pm
-
Wed, 11:30 pm
-
Fri, 10:41 am
-
Wed, 12:32 am
Most Viewed
-
Wed, 3:13 pm
-
Tue, 11:10 am
-
Fri, 2:42 pm
-
Sat, 6:03 pm
-
Thu, 12:42 pm
Social Media
Comments
News-Gazette.com embraces discussion of both community and world issues. We welcome you to contribute your ideas, opinions and comments, but we ask that you avoid personal attacks, vulgarity and hate speech. We reserve the right to remove any comment at our discretion, and we will block repeat offenders' accounts. To post comments, you must first be a registered user, and your username will appear with any comment you post. Happy posting.